Apple Cider Vinegar

September 24, 2007 at 11:49 am (Alternative Medicine, Bad Science, Supplements) (, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , )

cider vinegarSeveral websites extol the virtues of Apple Cider Vinegar. Variously, it has been promoted as a weight loss aid, a cure for arthritis, a cholesterol-lowering aid and according to Earth Clinic (http://www.earthclinic.com/Remedies/acvinegar.html), it “cures more ailments than any other folk remedy”. The people at Earth Clinic also seem to think that Cider Vinegar “has anti-fungal, anti-bacterial, and anti-viral properties”.  We will come back to the curative properties of Apple Cider Vinegar later.

Let’s see, what else do we have? Hmm, composition… “Apple Cider Vinegar contains cholesterol-reducing pectin and the perfect balance of 19 minerals, including potassium, phosphorus, chlorine, sodium, magnesium, calcium, sulfur, iron, fluorine and silicon.” (From http://www.parrothouse.com/acv.html). This should be easy to check, as USDA (the United States Department of Agriculture) provides an online database of nutrient values: http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/. I typed in Cider Vinegar and found that Cider Vinegar contains the following minerals (amounts per 100 grams):

Minerals
Calcium, Ca mg 7
Iron, Fe mg 0.20
Magnesium, Mg mg 5
Phosphorus, P mg 8
Potassium, K mg 73
Sodium, Na mg 5
Zinc, Zn mg 0.04
Copper, Cu mg 0.008
Manganese, Mn mg 0.249
Selenium, Se mcg 0.1

These minerals are present in miniscule amounts. To put this in some kind of context, the attached PDF ‘K in food’ shows levels of potassium in common foods. How much Cider Vinegar do you need to consume in order to get 300mg of Potassium? 410 grams.  How much baked potato would you have to eat in order to obtian the same amount of potassium? 56 grams (about one third of a baked potato according to the PDF).

To put it another way - the Zinc present is 0.04mg, or 40 micrograms. This is 0.2% of the EU Recommended Daily Allowance (RDA) for Zinc. How significant an amount is 0.2% of your RDA? Two thousandths of the amount you require daily. Great, now I just need to find some way of getting the other 99.8 of my RDA.  (See PDF for foods rich in Zinc).

Enough of the composition. Let’s look at the claims. Earth Clinic are certainly not alone. http://www.lacetoleather.com/wondrugpag3.html (apart from having a slightly weird url) sings the praises of this natural remedy with almost religious zeal. They have an A-Z of ailments that stretches over two pages. They also have statements like this – “Rheumatism, arthritis, cancer, heart ailments, high blood pressure etc, are all signs that the body has been neglected by the suppression of natural heating crisises” and under insomnia, they recommend that “Under severe cases, a naturopath or homeopath should be consulted”. Brilliant. So if the apple cider with miniscule amounts of minerals doesn’t work, go buy some water that contains no active ingredient at all.

Given that there is an A-Z list of ailments that can be prevented/cured by Cider Vinegar, one might expect that Pubmed is full of studies into the myriad benefits of this wonderdrug. Let’s see. http://preview.tinyurl.com/372w99 gives us 14 results. Can you find one that shows Cider Vinegar to have benefits in humans? I can’t, but I did find these:

1.      Such treatments as vegetarian diets, fresh or raw diets, allergy diets, no-dairy-products diets, fasting, vitamin and mineral supplementation, apple cider vinegar, and honey drinks are touted in the popular press as effective for the treatment of arthritis. In contrast to conventional therapies, the unproven treatments promise not only relief from symptoms but freedom from the disease as long as the diet regimen is followed. Several of the remedies appear to be harmless, but others are dangerous, especially if followed for prolonged periods. Nutrition professionals should be aware of the nature of these treatments and be prepared to offer sound, scientifically based but nonjudgmental care and information.

Management of patients using unproven regimens for arthritis.
J Am Diet Assoc. 1987 Sep;87(9):1211-4.
PMID: 3624710 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

2.      Apple cider vinegar products are advertised in the popular press and over the Internet for treatment of a variety of conditions. After an adverse event was reported to the authors, eight apple cider vinegar tablet products were tested for pH, component acid content, and microbial growth. Considerable variability was found between the brands in tablet size, pH, component acid content, and label claims. Doubt remains as to whether apple cider vinegar was in fact an ingredient in the evaluated products. The inconsistency and inaccuracy in labelling, recommended dosages, and unsubstantiated health claims make it easy to question the quality of the products.

Esophageal injury by apple cider vinegar tablets and subsequent evaluation of products.
J Am Diet Assoc. 2005 Jul;105(7):1141-4.
PMID: 15983536 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

There doesn’t seem to be much evidence for the safety and efficacy of Cider Vinegar on Pubmed, so I had a look around. Maybe there are some scholarly articles not published on Pubmed that look at Cider Vinegar? http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0GCU/is_n6_v14/ai_20152545/pg_1 seems to be sceptical regarding the much vaunted benefits of Apple Cider Vinegar. Two quotes stand out for me:

There is no scientific evidence that apple cider vinegar has any medicinal properties. While the folksy anecdotes from those who claim to have benefited from apple cider vinegar tonics may be amusing to read, they are simply that — anecdotes.

“The Arthritis Foundation calls vinegar a harmless, but unproven, arthritis remedy. It points out that arthritis symptoms come and go, and that a person using an unproven remedy may think a remedy worked simply because they used it at a time when symptoms were going into natural remission. Such is undoubtedly the case for many of the “cures” connected to vinegar.”

EDIT: Spotted this – http://content.karger.com/produktedb/produkte.asp?typ=fulltext&file=nef80242. Quote: “Regular ingestion of cider vinegar is becoming an increasingly popular habit in Austria and Germany. Cider vinegar is described as a prophylaxis and cure for almost any disease or complaint. Doses from one teaspoon to six soupspoons per day have been recommended. A local bookshop offered nine different specialist books on the benefits of cider vinegar. Here we describe the case of a woman, in whom chronic ingestion of excessive amounts of cider vinegar caused serious health problems.” What kind of health problems? Well, the article is entitled ‘Hypokalemia, Hyperreninemia and Osteoporosis in a Patient Ingesting Large Amounts of Cider Vinegar’. Authors: Karl Lhotta, Günther Höfle, Rudolf Gasser, Gerd Finkenstedt. Ref: Nephron 1998;80:242-243 (DOI: 10.1159/000045180).

PDF links:

http://jdc325.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/zn-in-food.pdf

http://jdc325.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/k-in-foods.pdf

Edit, 26/5/2012

Before posting your personal anecdotes about your amazing recoveries from various illnesses, please read this post on evidence-based medicine.

I’ve gone back to Pubmed to look at the evidence that has been published since I wrote this blog post. There’s not much that’s new but here are some links to abstracts of papers that look relevant to use of apple cider vinegar in humans:

Effect of apple cider vinegar on delayed gastric emptying in patients with type 1 diabetes mellitus: a pilot study. “Previous studies on healthy people show that vinegar delays gastric emptying and lowers postprandial blood glucose and insulin levels. The aim of this study was to investigate the effect of apple cider vinegar on delayed gastric emptying rate on diabetes mellitus patients. [...] This study shows that vinegar affects insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus patients with diabetic gastroparesis by reducing the gastric emptying rate even further, and this might be a disadvantage regarding to their glycaemic control.”

Vinegar lacks antiglycemic action on enteral carbohydrate absorption in human subjects. “Blood samples for insulin and glucose were drawn at 20-minute intervals. The oral octreotide/insulin suppression test suppressed endogenous insulin secretion for the first 100 minutes of the study. During this time, the rate of rise of glucose was modestly but significantly (P = .01) greater after vinegar ingestion compared to placebo, suggesting that vinegar does not act to decrease glycemia by interference with enteral carbohydrate absorption.”

Here is a link to an abstract of a paper that looked at human teeth inoculated with bacteria and then “irrigated” with various solutions (note that the apple cider vinegar group was not among the best performing irrigants):

Antibacterial efficacy of endodontic irrigating solutions and their combinations in root canals contaminated with Enterococcus faecalis. “Teeth were divided according to the irrigant: Group I (GI), 2.5% sodium hypochlorite solution (NaOCl); GII, 2.5% NaOCl + 10% citric acid; GIII, 2.5% NaOCl + apple cider vinegar; GIV, apple cider vinegar; GV, 2% chlorhexidine solution; GVI, 1% peracetic acid; GVII, saline solution. [...] All solutions promoted reduction of E. faecalis after instrumentation, but bacterial counts were higher in the final sample. GI, GV, and GVI had lower bacterial counts than the other groups.”

And here is a link to an abstract of a paper that looked at blood lipids in rats that looks interesting. Bear in mind that the study was in rats, not humans and that the rats were being fed high levels of cholesterol.

Effects of apple cider vinegars produced with different techniques on blood lipids in high-cholesterol-fed rats. “Cholesterol and apple vinegar samples were administered using oral gavage to all groups of rats except the control group. Apple cider vinegars, regardless of the production method, decreased triglyceride and VLDL levels in all groups when compared to animals on high-cholesterol diets without vinegar supplementation. Apple cider vinegars increased total cholesterol and HDL and LDL cholesterol levels and decreased liver function tests when compared to animals on a high-cholesterol diet without vinegar supplementation.”

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186 Comments

  1. Danny said,

    You mean you don’t drink 50 litres of it a day to get your zinc fix? And does anyone explain why cider vinegar should be magically better for you than any other?

  2. Teek said,

    nice – despite lack of evidence for efficacy Preparation X (for apple cide r vinegar, substitute any woo product) continues to be sold to unsuspecting gullible public.

    i like the analysis of mineral content as a % of RDA, really shows just how wide of the mark most woo can be!

  3. greencoconut said,

    came here from the comment you left. great info about acv. i mainly use it for hair/facial care, and have been very pleased with the results. i haven’t taken it internally at this point, and probably won’t now that i’ve read all of this. thanks!

  4. Row1 said,

    I have seen Medscape present a couple reviews on the beneficial glycemic-control effect of regular vinegar. You can ‘join’ Medscape, then search for “vinegar.” There appears to be a handful of decent articles with evidence regarding vingegar and blood sugar regulation (“postpriandal glucose” is a term used).

    An example, from one of their reviews, of a controlled study with a dose-response effect is:

    Ostman E, Granfeldt Y, Persson L, Bjorck I. Vinegar supplementation lowers glucose and insulin responses and increases satiety after a bread meal in healthy subjects. Eur J Clin Nutr. 2005;59,983-988.

    This body of lietrature literature satisfies the criticisms of apple cider vinegar mentioned here: it does not depend upon some far-flung cosmophysiological theory, anecdotal evidence, or the presence of irrelevant levels of micronutrients, and it is not specific to apple cider vinegar versus plain old off-the-shelf vinegar. PS: you can also use the vinegar for household cleaning. Here’s mud in your eye!

  5. jdc325 said,

    Thanks for the comment Row1. It seems Danny was right and any old vinegar will do. So splash some (cheap, non-magical) vinegar on your fish & chips.

  6. Jonah said,

    Other studies on Pubmed show:

    Naturally fermented vinegar contains peptides (short protein fragments) that inhibit angoitensin converting enzyme, which is associated with high blood pressure. In studies on hypertensive rats, vinegar reduces blood pressure to more normal values. Distilled vinegar lacks these peptides.

    The short chain fatty acids (acetic acid, butyric acid and propionic acid) all have decent anti-inflammatory properties. They have been successfully used to treat inflammatory bowel disease in a double-blind study. Vinegar is rich in acetic acid.

    The protective effect that dietary fiber has on colon cancer is probably from short chained fatty acids including acetic acid. Inert fiber like cellulose has no apparent benefit; the reduction in cancer is seen only with fermentable fiber.

    Dilute acetic acid is also widely used in cervical exams because the cancerous and precancerous cells cannot deal with it, and they turn white and are easy to spot.

  7. jdc325 said,

    Thanks for your comments Jonah. I’ve quoted your comment below and added a couple of my own thoughts/queries in square brackets.

    Other studies on Pubmed show:

    Naturally fermented vinegar contains peptides (short protein fragments) that inhibit angoitensin converting enzyme, which is associated with high blood pressure. In studies on hypertensive rats, vinegar reduces blood pressure to more normal values. Distilled vinegar lacks these peptides. [Rats? Were there no studies on the usefulness or of vinegar in reducing blood pressure in humans then?]

    The short chain fatty acids (acetic acid, butyric acid and propionic acid) all have decent anti-inflammatory properties. They have been successfully used to treat inflammatory bowel disease in a double-blind study. Vinegar is rich in acetic acid. [So… are you making the leap from a single positive study using short-chain fatty acids, to recommending a supplement that is ‘rich in’ one of these short chain fatty acids?]

    The protective effect that dietary fiber has on colon cancer is probably from short chained fatty acids including acetic acid. Inert fiber like cellulose has no apparent benefit; the reduction in cancer is seen only with fermentable fiber. [What is your basis for that first statement? How do you know that the difference between soluble and insoluble fibres is down to fatty acids?]

    Dilute acetic acid is also widely used in cervical exams because the cancerous and precancerous cells cannot deal with it, and they turn white and are easy to spot. [Forgive me, but what exactly is your point here?]

  8. Jonah said,

    I haven’t come across any studies of fermented vinegar and hypertension that includes humans. Other fermented foods that produce peptides to inhibit ACE and lower blood pressure have been tested in people. These include some milk ferments, soy sauce (the high sodium offsets some of the benefits in salt-sensitive individuals), fish protein lysates, etc.

    I am not making a jump from one study that found anti-inflammatory effects to recommending that individuals use vinegar for any particular purpose. I am merely pointing out that acetate and related compounds have been ignored by nutritionists, yet they may have significant effects on the body. When one evaluates the folk use of vinegar for arthritis, the measured anti-inflammatory properties of vinegar might be of interest. Science has barely looked at this question, but has documented a reduction in COX enyzme activity in the GI mucosa of animals on a diet high in acetate, butyrate, etc. No one has looked into how much of these compounds pass into the blood and whether it might affect inflammatory processes away from the GI tract; the idea that vinegar has an effect similar to aspirin, acetaminophen, or ibuprofen is unproven but plausible.

    With respects to fiber, the distinction I mentioned is not between soluble and insoluble, but rather between fermentable and non-fermentable. The soluble fibers are of interest in binding cholesterol and preventing its reabsorption. Soluble fiber may or may not be fermentable (much oat fiber is both soluble and fermentable, while semi-synthetic methylcellulose preparations are soluble but not fermentable (unless one is a termite)). Fermentable fiber increases the levels of acetate, butyrate, and propionate in the GI system, and there is a fairly large body of research that links these to chemoprevention. (search for “SCFA Colon Cancer” on Pubmed). Soluble fiber might have some benefits by sequestering toxic compounds and removing them from the body – too simple to say that it is only fermentable fiber as I may have implied, but SCFAs do seem to be of important for reducing cancer. While butyrate is the strongest of the SCFAs, acetate is significant, and these have been documented to change the expression of a wide variety of genes relevant to colon cancer, including uPA, TIMP-1, TIMP-2, p53, p21, Bax, Bcl-2 and PCNA.

    With respect to the cervical exam and acetate: cancerous or deranged cells are often more susceptible to various chemicals (which may cause apoptosis, autoschizis, other reactions). The selective toxicity of acetate to cancerous and precancerous cells is used for diagnostic screening – so called ‘acetowhite positive lesions’ are formed when the acetic acid reacts vigorously with abnormal cells, but not with normal, healthy cells. Another indication that there may be more to vinegar than most people suspect.

  9. Jonah said,

    Another interesting study:

    Asian Pac J Cancer Prev. 2003 Apr-Jun;4(2):119-24. Risk factors for oesophageal cancer in Linzhou, China: a case-control study.

    This research found a pretty dramatic reduction in the risk for esophageal cancer in people that consumed the most beans (OR = 0.37), vegetables (0.40) and vinegar (0.37). Although this directly proves nothing, it is consistent with the idea that fermentable fiber and SCFAs are protective of certain cancers. Beans are famously rich in fermentable fiber (although they also contain flavonoids, protein, and other compounds). Vegetables (whichever people eat) are bound to contain fermentable fiber and a host of phytochemicals. And vinegar consumption alone is strongly correlated with reduced risk of esophageal cancer.

  10. jdc325 said,

    Regarding anti-inflammatory properties of vinegar, there is some interesting stuff on the anti-inflammatory properties of eicosapentaenoic acid (an omega-3 fatty acid found in fish) and you can find papers on this in Pubmed. In fact, there’s one here regarding the formation and export of PGE3 from lung cancer cells exposed to EPA: http://www.jlr.org/cgi/content/full/45/6/1030. It’s interesting stuff – albeit interesting stuff that comes from an in-vitro study rather than a study in living, breathing human beings.

    I’m not sure that there is any decent evidence for your claims for vinegar, though – it seems to be just speculation. You are talking about things being ‘unproven but plausible’ and claiming ‘science has barely looked at this question’ – this could be seen as implying that vinegar has potential as an anti-inflammatory, but that no-one has bothered looking. There is no evidence that this is indeed the case.

    Claiming that this possibility has been ‘ignored by nutritionists’ is also unjustified in my view – there are already plenty of nutritionists out there who will sell you some ACV tablets that you do not need. Why would you use something that you claim is ‘unproven but plausible’ when you already have treatments that are not only plausible, are proven?

    You also talk about ‘evaluating the folk use of vinegar for arthritis’ – how would you evaluate folk use of vinegar? What about the folk use of frankinsense, boswellia, ginger or nettle leaf for arthritis? Do they have more merit than vinegar? Less? About the same? What about copper bracelets? See here for more examples of arthritis quackery: http://www.arthritis-treatment-and-relief.com/arthritis-cures.html. Folk use? It seems to me that folk use anything and everything they can get their hands on in order to try and relieve their arthritis symptoms. And dishonest charlatans – as well as well-meaning acquaintances – will give them plenty of ideas to try out.

  11. jdc325 said,

    Interesting that you are again claiming benefit for vinegar with regards oesophogeal health – have you seen this study on Pubmed?

    Esophageal injury by apple cider vinegar tablets and subsequent evaluation of products.
    J Am Diet Assoc. 2005 Jul;105(7):1141-4.
    PMID: 15983536 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

  12. Jonah said,

    The absence of evidence is rather different from proof that something is not effective. The ability to put a stamp of ‘science’ on a claim (whether advocacy of some purported benefits or their dismissal) requires evidence. While you did a good job of disproving the claims that vinegar is a good source of minerals, you have not come close to answering the larger claims that vinegar may beneficially impact health.

    The real issue, as I see it, is not whether there are people out there making outrageous claims for vinegar (there are). A more important set of questions include: “Is is acetic acid/acetate itself a nutritional factor?”, “Is vinegar an active component in traditional diets (like the Mediterranean and Okinawan diets)?”, “Is there evidence that vinegar may contribute to health and prevent or ameliorate disease?” I believe that the answer to these questions is yes, but there is relatively little research.

    I’m puzzled by your reference to fish oils, inflammation and arthritis – although that is one area where many anecdotal or folk claims preceded science and have been verified by science. A few decades ago, fish oils were seen mostly as vitamin A and vitamin D in a base of non-extraordinary oil. The logic dispensed by conservative nutritionists was that this was good for preventing deficiencies of A and D, and that a few tablespoons through-out the year were sufficient as this prevented blindness and ricketts. Subsequent research has shown that the particular type of oil (omega-3s) can have profound effects on the metabolism of prostaglandins, thromboxanes, and other arachidonate compounds, and shift parts of the metabolism from a pro-inflammatory to anti-inflammatory condition. A daily supplement of fish oils is now recommended by many (including a leading non-profit consumer magazine). Why mention this particular article, which you conclude is an interesting study, but is merely theoretical because it comes from in vitro studies, not from studies on intact persons? A far more relevant article would be ‘Current clinical applications of omega-6 and omega-3 fatty acids’ by Lee, et al., which concludes that “Rheumatoid arthritis (RA) is another disease entity that has been proven to benefit from this nutrition intervention, with improvement in symptoms and diminished nonsteroidal antiinflammatory drug (NSAID) usage.”

    Your values and attitudes (and your interpretation of science) remind me of the debate over adding folate to processed foods. This debate lasted decades, and was fought at every step with arguments like “those in vitro studies are interesting, but very speculative” and “those animal studies are encouraging but people are not rats” and “epidemiological correlation should not be confused with causation.” Eventually, the bulk of evidence accumulated to the point where breakfast cereals were fortified with folate, and neural tube defects dropped dramatically. The mainstream patted themselves on the back for their brilliance, when in fact many actively resisted a safe, inexpensive intervention for years, during which time thousands of children were born with permanent disabilities.

  13. Jonah said,

    (continued)

    As far as the use of boswellia, frankincense, and ginger for arthritis vs. the folk use of vinegar for arthritis, all that can be confidently said is that there is more research on boswellia and ginger, and that all indications are that boswellia, ginger and frankincense can be effective. It is difficult to comb PubMed for research on vinegar because the PubMed Mesh language equates most molecules that contain an acetate group with vinegar, even though we would expect testosterone acetate to be rather different than vinegar. But after applying my own search algorithms to PubMed on the topic of vinegar and arthritis, the only articles I found on vinegar and arthritis were opinion pieces- supporting my original statement that research is lacking.

    The page you linked to was interesting – on one hand, it completely dismissed herbs for arthritis as unproven hokum. On the other hand, it said if you have arthritis, see a doctor, who may prescribe aspirin or some other medicine. Aspirin is, of course, a semi-synthetic form of salicylic acid originally isolated from willow bark. I believe that the big difference between aspirin and salicylic acid is in the absorption, but that both are metabolized to the same active ingredient in the body and that both are effective for various aches and pains.

    I’m not surprised that a tablet of dried vinegar might cause esophageal damage – as a youth, I took aspirin on the advice of my doctor, and the tablet was not washed all the way into my stomach and it caused some ulceration in my gullet. I have never had such ulceration from eating pickles or sweet-sour chicken.

  14. jdc325 said,

    “I believe the answer to these questions is yes” – if you are that convinced then why don’t you design a DBRCT on vinegar as an anti-inflammatory (or a trial comparing vinegar to an established anti-inflammatory)? If all you have is belief and you admit there is relatively little research then what is your point exactly? Do you think scientists are covering up the benefits of vinegar in order to sell more products for Big Pharma or do you think they are ignorant of the wondrous benefits of vinegar?

    Yes – research is lacking. All that means is that your speculation is unjustified (in my opinion).

    “A daily supplement of fish oils is recommended by many” – is it recommended by the FSA? How about the BDA? If I recall correctly, the answer to both questions is ‘no’.

    BTW – I found your comment about epidemiology and Folic Acid interesting. Are you accusing me of being ‘anti-epidemiology’? I know epidemiology has its limits, but I have previously called it a life-saver: http://jdc325.wordpress.com/2008/04/18/epidemiology-a-life-saver/

    I would also be interested in what you think my values and attitudes are and what your opinion is of my interpretation of science.

  15. jdc325 said,

    By the way, Jonah – my original post dealt with the bullshit claims of Apple Cider Vinegar salesmen. I never said that vinegar couldn’t possibly be good for you, I just pointed out (a) the claims that were demonstrably false and (b) the claims for which there was no good evidence.
    Without good evidence, do you think it is acceptable to make what are essentially medicinal claims? I don’t think it is my job to provide evidence that vinegar couldn’t possibly be good for arthritis – it is surely down to those who already claim it is to at least provide evidence (I’m not asking them to prove irrefutably that ACV cures arthritis – just to provide some decent evidence in favour of the hypothesis).
    I still think my criticisms are valid.

  16. Jonah said,

    Well, I don’t have the resources to design and carry out a double-blind placebo controlled study for vinegar and arthritis at this point in time. And big pharma has actually done some research that is relevant – one example is “Anti-inflammatory properties of the short-chain fatty acids acetate and propionate: A study with relevance to inflammatory bowel disease” (AstraZenica). So it isn’t just me that is speculating; it is more than a tenuous hypothetical link.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if big pharma ultimately develops some buffered, time released molecule that releases these SCFAs (which just happens to be patentable ;)) – but the basic science is building with respect to inflammation and acetate. I’m not prescribing anything as therapy for life threatening diseases, but think a modest doses of vinegar or dietary fiber seem appropriate to me as a part of a healthy diet, as a tonic, or for personal experimentation for mild, self-limiting disease.

    Just got busy here, can’t write more today. Perhaps later.

  17. jdc325 said,

    Again, I’ve quoted Jonah’s comment and made my own italicised notes in square brackets

    Well, I don’t have the resources to design and carry out a double-blind placebo controlled study for vinegar and arthritis at this point in time. And big pharma has actually done some research that is relevant – one example is “Anti-inflammatory properties of the short-chain fatty acids acetate and propionate: A study with relevance to inflammatory bowel disease” (AstraZenica). So it isn’t just me that is speculating; it is more than a tenuous hypothetical link. [The paper is on short-chain fatty acids, one of which is found in cider vinegar - the paper is not on ACV itself. That means your claim that ACV could be beneficial *is* speculative (just as an example, how do you know it is the acetate rather than propionate that is beneficial?). AstraZeneca are investigating short-chain fatty acids, you are speculating on ACV]

    I wouldn’t be surprised if big pharma ultimately develops some buffered, time released molecule that releases these SCFAs (which just happens to be patentable ;)) – but the basic science is building with respect to inflammation and acetate. [Fair enough. That still doesn't mean that you can claim your ideas about vinegar and other fermented foods are anything other than speculation] I’m not prescribing anything as therapy for life threatening diseases, but think a modest doses of vinegar or dietary fiber seem appropriate to me as a part of a healthy diet, as a tonic, or for personal experimentation for mild, self-limiting disease. [Modest doses of fibre are an important part of a healthy diet - and people should ensure they consume sufficient fruit and veg to attain a reasonable intake of fibre. Modest doses of vinegar used as a condiment would seem totally reasonable to me - any theoretical health effects would be nothing more than potential side-benefits, but I certainly wouldn't discourage anyone from sprinkling vinegar on their chips. Or a bit of balsamic on their salad. I assume that you are using the word 'tonic' in a vague manner, meaning something like 'pick-me-up' - this is meaningless gobbledgook. How is vinegar a tonic, or pick-me-up? (The alternative is that you are using the word tonic to mean 'medicine' - which vinegar certainly isn't). I don't really think it is appropriate to recommend vinegar as an experimental health treatment, but I am glad that you stated mild, self-limiting disease. Incidentally, this would rule out most of the diseases listed by the ACV websites and apologists - e.g., cancer, arthritis etc...]

    Just got busy here, can’t write more today. Perhaps later. [Cool - hope to hear from you again Jonah. Your comments and ideas have certainly been interesting. Thank you for taking the time to pass them on.]

  18. Jonah said,

    >> [The paper is on short-chain fatty acids, one of which is found in cider vinegar - the paper is not on ACV itself. That means your claim that ACV could be beneficial *is* speculative (just as an example, how do you know it is the acetate rather than propionate that is beneficial?). AstraZeneca are investigating short-chain fatty acids, you are speculating on ACV]

    No, that study (and several others) have found that acetate itself has anti-inflammatory and immuno-regulatory properties. Vinegar contains large amounts of acetate. Vinegar is more than a flavoring.

    The research does indicated that fermented vinegar does contain some things not found in distilled vinegar (including the peptides mentioned previously), although relatively little work has been done on apple vinegar versus other fermented vinegars. As to whether ACV is different from other fermented vinegars, I have no idea. When it comes to wine, most in the medical community would say sure, there is a difference between red wine, white wine, and vodka with respect to some effects on the body. I don’t see any reason why different vinegars would not have some different effects, although, again, I am not an ACV fetishist. (I do have 5 gallons of mead brewing, and two gallons of that will be fermented to vinegar.)

    There were interesting studies on persimmon vinegar improving cholesterol in ethanol fed rats, and antioxidant status of humans, but the design of the studies does not give a clue as to what causes this improvement. Would have been interesting if they compared a control group to persimmon juice, persimmon wine, and persimmon vinegar.

    >> I am glad that you stated mild, self-limiting disease. Incidentally, this would rule out most of the diseases listed by the ACV websites and apologists – e.g., cancer, arthritis etc…]

    Arthritis (in its many forms) deserves medical attention, but if the doc says simply use NSAIDs when the pain is too much, then I would not see any reason why of vinegar on the food would be unwise, unless the NSAID was causing gastric erosion. Even then, diluted vinegar would be far less reactive than normal stomach acid after eating.

    Cancer is a serious disease, and there is no evidence that vinegar is any thing close to an appropriate therapeutic for that. But assuming that proper treatment is in place, again, I see no general reason to avoid vinegar (or olive oil, fish oil, fruits and veggies, and other good foods).

  19. jdc325 said,

    “I see no general reason to avoid vinegar (or olive oil, fish oil, fruits and veggies, and other good foods).”
    Yes – I agree. I think Michael Pollan put it very nicely when he wrote “Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.” As I said in a previous comment, I don’t wish to discourage anyone from using vinegar. I simply think that the purported benefits of ACV have been vastly overstated by the websites I referred to in my blog post. They are potential, rather than proven benefits and it is, in my view, inappropriate – and certainly premature – for anyone to claim vinegar as a cure for the conditions I mentioned in my post.

  20. Ben said,

    Minerals and vitamins mean nothing, you aren’t taking it to get your daily dose of zinc, plus you have the typos of an 8 year old, get over it, its the natural chemicals in it which is a cure-all, not the miniscule amounts of minerals

  21. jdc325 said,

    Minerals and vitamins mean nothing, you aren’t taking it to get your daily dose of zinc

    It was claimed by a cider vinegar acolyte that cider vinegar contained a perfect balance of minerals. I debunked the claim. Did you read my post before you criticised it?

    plus you have the typos of an 8 year old, get over it

    I hate typos – in fact, I hate mistakes in general. Please feel free to point out errors wherever you see them on this site. Apart from ‘obtian’ in the third para, I can’t see any typos. Are you sure I’ve made others? Perhaps you’d be kind enough to point them out. Thanks!

    its the natural chemicals in it which is a cure-all, not the miniscule amounts of minerals

    Ah, natural chemicals ‘is a cure-all’. Cool. How about these natural chemicals: arsenic, snake venom, anthrax, poisonous mushrooms and lead? Natural does not automatically equal good and synthetic does not automatically equal bad. Try this paper from Bruce Ames: http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/87/19/7782 or this article: http://potency.berkeley.edu/pdfs/Politicizing_Science.pdf

  22. mcpete said,

    I suffered from plantar fasiaitis for many years to the point where I missed red wing stanley cup finals because it hurt too much to walk. My doctor put me on celebrix, bextra and the other “miracle drug” that CAN kill you, none worked. One night I woke up with heartburn and instead of taking a “heart burn medication” I took a teaspoon of vinegar. My heartburn was gone by the time I got back in bed. I started drinking a shot glass of vinegar and pounding a large glass of water first thing in the morning.
    After about 3 weeks, I noticed the pain in myhands was gone, soon after the pain in my feet left. I have had no sign of plantar fasciaitis for the past 4 years. I attribute it to my consumption of vinegar. I fired my doctor. JDC325, you are an idiot. I hate idiots.

  23. jdc325 said,

    Hi mcpete.

    I’m glad you recovered from your Plantar Fasciitis. Speaking personally, I wouldn’t fire my doctor if I were you – but that’s your choice to make and I guess you can do as you see fit with regards your medical treatment.

    I find it odd that you are so angry with me for setting out the evidence on Apple Cider Vinegar in this blog post though. Then again
    “JDC325, you are an idiot. I hate idiots.” You are, of course, welcome to your opinion as to whether or not I am an idiot (I make no claims that I am intelligent and am perfectly happy for people to believe otherwise). I do think it is sad that anyone would hate someone for being an idiot though.

  24. soveda said,

    Hmmm, I always found the best prevention for plantar fasciitis was having decently supportive and shock absorbing shoes! On a random note I was at a cider factory tour today and told that when they have a failed batch it gets sold to companies who make cider vinegar. So it is in fact just failed cider… Oh and just to say I never realised how much woo there was about vinegar!

  25. Jessie said,

    arthritis herbal cure…

    I personally agree with your comments, but there will always be some people who may not feel the same….

  26. TOM Dark said,

    Do you sell or could you recommend a source for a reputable fermented vinegar. Please tell me what you can about it and provide email address/s.

  27. Anicca3 said,

    There is a company called Bragg which sells an unfiltered apple cider vinegar which is of good quality. You can easily order this product online or pick it up at most Whole Foods locations… For whatever reason you may want it.

  28. Edgar said,

  29. jdc325 said,

    Heh – can you guess where Edgar works, children? According to the site linked in the above comment, ACV can “re-mineralise” the body (“High In Potassium, Magnesium, Calcium”) and top up important vitamins and trace elements. For a better idea of how good ACV is at remineralising your body and topping up your vitamins, check out my blog post above. And just for context, think about this: How much Cider Vinegar do you need to consume in order to get 300mg of Potassium? 410 grams. How much baked potato would you have to eat in order to obtain the same amount of potassium? 56 grams. High in potassium, magnesium and calcium? Rubbish!

  30. high soluble fiber diet said,

    high soluble fiber diet…

    I loved Best Road Map to Best Diet For High Cholesterol Aims At Controlling …!…

  31. Patty said,

    Patty…

  32. Susan said,

    I don’t care what anybody says about Apple Cider Vinegar. I suffered through three years of horrible hot flashes and mood swings. I barely slept for 3 years and would not take hormones because of breast cancer in my family. I finally remembered that my grandmother always said Apple cider Vinegar would cure any imbalance in the body. I started drinking a glass of water in the morning with two tablespoons of Apple Cider Vinegar and another glass in the evening. By the second day, my hot flashes were completely gone. I’ve been drinking this for a year and have not had a hot flash since. I can actually feel my body temperature cooling down when I drink this stuff. You’ll never convince me it’s not miracle stuff!

  33. jdc325 said,

    I’m glad to hear that you feel your health has improved. I hesitate to suggest that regression to the mean or the placebo effect might have something to do with it, but I’m yet to be convinced that ACV is “miracle stuff” Susan. Thanks for your comment, though.

  34. Unprincipled Healthcare: Part Two « jdc325's Weblog said,

    [...] Principle Healthcare, vendors of Apple Cider Vinegar pills. [There's a little bit more on ACV here: old blog post, please don't laugh at my amateurish early efforts at [...]

  35. Deb O. said,

    jdc…you are violating your own #1 rule…WHERE is the scientifically controlled human studies that PROVE that ACV does NOT do what individuals claim that it does??…you claimed there are no studies that proves it provides health benefits…wrong, a five minute search turned up results on controlled study for diabetics
    http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/27/1/281.full
    and another with results to be published on 7/8/09 which as i understand includes human trial as follow up to the mice..
    Researchers found that the mice developed a lot less body fat (up to 10% less) than mice who didn’t receive the vinegar compound. The amount of food eaten by the mice was not affected.

    It’s believed that acetic acid turns on genes that produce proteins that help the body break down fats. Such an action helps prevent fat buildup in body, and thwarts weight gain.

    The findings are scheduled to be published in the July 8, 2009 issue of Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry.
    Come on jdc, step it up man!…lol

  36. jdc325 said,

    @Deb O:
    1. It’s not up to me to find studies that prove that ACV does not do what it is claimed to do – it is up to those making claims to provide evidence for them.
    2. I claimed that there were (at the time I wrote this post) no studies indexed on Pubmed that showed that ACV was beneficial in humans. I didn’t claim that there were *no* studies. The paper you link to is not indexed on Pubmed.
    3. In the paper you link to, the control group had only 8 subjects, there is no detail as to what placebo drink was used (e.g., whether the authors were able to provide a placebo drink indistinguishable from the ACV drink in terms of taste), one of the improvements was not statistically significant (P=0.07), and the authors (far from claiming that the case for ACV is proven) conclude by stating that “Further investigations to examine the efficacy of vinegar as an antidiabetic therapy are warranted”.
    4. The paper you link to refers to ACV in treating insulin sensitivity. The claims I criticised in my post were as follows: a weight loss aid, a cure for arthritis, a cholesterol-lowering aid, and (according to Earth Clinic) it “cures more ailments than any other folk remedy”. Where are the papers that back up these claims?
    5. “The findings are scheduled to be published in the July 8, 2009 issue of Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry.” Why are you citing an unpublished paper?

  37. birdy said,

    gee, a natural food product that can’t be patented, marketed, and sold for 1000% profit isn’t being heavily researched by labs whose main interest is to develop drugs that would make them money? i’m sooooo shocked!

    unfortunately, you’re never really going to find large controlled studies that would prove the benefits of any natural substance. this is a capitalistic society where our motivation for innovation or anything else is profits. gone are the days of good doctors that would just give away the polio vaccine to help the world. that’s just the way it is. and the medical community is full of corruption just like anything else. certain studies get swept under the rug and go unpublished all the time.

    i understand your point that making claims that cannot be proven can be irresponsible. but it’s also irresponsible for a person to ingest ANYTHING in excess, including water.

    but, apple cider vinegar is pretty harmless. doctor recommended and fda approved over=the-counter drugs taken at proper dosages have been far more lethal. heck, acetometaphine is responsible for more deaths than all other drugs and supplements combined. i know that’s not your point but, it’s probably a more worthwhile topic.

  38. birdy said,

    kinda off the subject, but, i went camping this weekend and got bit by a spider on my arm 3 times. the whole thing is swollen from wrist to elbow and i’ve been itching like crazy. i tried everything in my first aid kit including a scrub, aloe vera, calamine, benadryl pills and topical, cortisone, and prescription strength steroid cream normally used for eczema. NOTHING has worked to ease the pain and itch.

    i came home and used plain distilled vinegar. ahhhhh.. relief at last! why didn’t my doctor recommend this to me when i called? damn him. it only lasts a short while so i’m keeping a wash cloth soaked with vinegar wrapped around my arm. if removed for too long, the pain and itch returns. i thought that perhaps it was just cold liquid providing the relief so i tried plain water. it didn’t work at all. vinegar is a dandy. end rant.

  39. jdc325 said,

    @birdy: it is my understanding that you can actually patent natural food products for novel use. E.g., a patent for vitamin D in treating cancer has been awarded. A patent attorney has written that “this has been the case since 2005 under UK law, and in reality, longer under the EP system”. I think the Patents Act 1977 is the relevant legislation in England. The situation in India is similar: “new use of a known substance was unpatentable” but now “a new use of a known substance in a known or a new way to produce a non-obvious and useful result would be patentable” (Link).

    Re the spider bite: I think wasp stings are alkaline and you can use lemon juice or vinegar on them. Perhaps the spider that bit you had alkaline venom?

  40. John said,

    ACV is in my opinion as close to a miracle cure you can find for various problems. Personally I find it very helpful for my headaches

  41. jdc325 said,

    Thank you for commenting John.

    I’m not sure whether there is any good evidence for the claims you make here or on your “health benefits of Apple Cider Vinegar” blog – would you care to provide some?

    For example, that “Since apple cider vinegar is made from apples and cider, it is a rich source of vitamins and minerals like potassium, sodium, magnesium, calcium, phosphorous, chlorine, sulfur and iron”. Given the figures I provide in my blog post, I am not sure it is appropriate to claim that ACV is a “rich source” of these minerals (for example: calcium is 7mg per 100g, magnesium 5mg per 100g – the RDAs for these minerals are 800mg and 300mg respectively).

  42. Nick said,

    Vinegars probably have an effect because acetates make soluble compounds with divalent cations (e.g. the mineral content; magnesium, calcium, iron, etc.) and these can destabilise/break-up intestinal biofilms whose matrix is held together with anionic polysaccharides. Biofilms may have quite an impact on ‘general health’; causing inflammation, ‘leaky gut’ and reducing mineral/nutrient absorption. Any references? No, not much has really been done on biofilms…

    Vinegar derived from apples may also be better than other types of vinegar as it will contain a larger amount of prebiotic carbohydrates. Also unpasteurised ‘natural’ vinegars will have a small probiotic component. So, some types (i.e. ACV) may be ‘better’ than others.

    Combined these effects could significantly ‘manipulate’ the gut-flora for the better. Any refs.? No, not directly relevant ones, at least that I’m aware of. Research in this area is in its’ infancy but some quite fascinating/surprising studies have been done – search PubMed (for gut-flora, probiotics, prebiotics, etc.)

    ACV consumption has some interesting anecdotal history and may well have merits. However, like you I object to promotion based on pseudoscience and assumption – it may well have positive benefits but I hate reading made-up cr*p about how “X” may work!

    Like a previous commentator said though I don’t expect any large reliable/authoritative studies to be done on ACV any time soon. A cheap, readily available and thus unprofitable substance such as ACV just doesn’t get the funding these-days, which is invariably from ‘Big Pharma’. However, there will be small, poorly designed studies by ‘special interest groups’ that produce the exact result wanted and which by their nature will further add to the scepticism.

    Personally the ‘evidence’ about ACV does not overwhelm me but I can see that there are valid biological mechanisms behind why it may ‘work’. I may in future make sure that I put extra vinegar on my fish n chips though!

  43. unnerved said,

    Interesting to note that words like “quackery” are often used by the medical establishment to describe anything that could be a threat to the huge amount of money that is generated by the pharmaceuticals that do nothing but mask symptoms and make people sicker. Once again, it’s the bottom line that matters.

  44. jdc325 said,

    Interesting assertions there, unnerved. Can you justify your claim that pharmaceuticals do nothing but mask symptoms and make people sicker? Can you give me any reason to believe that the useless remedies I referred to (those remedies listed in the website I link to in the comment to which I presume you are referring) are anything other than quackery?

    I’m not part of the medical establishment and have no competing interests – so I’m not sure why you think it is so interesting to note that “words like “quackery” are often used by the medical establishment…” Are you implying that I have written negatively about ACV in order to boost the sales of pharmaceutical drugs I have an interest in or that I have something to gain from denigrating quack remedies? If so, I’m afraid you are very wrong.

  45. dann said,

    @jdc325

    I’d like to tell you a short story : I used to live in eastern Europe when i was a child; many years ago I got some harmless colored spots on my back skin, probably due to radiation or something ,I dont know; those spots never went away from my skin for many years, I used the best antibiotics creams possible, you name it, they only disappeared for a while then reappeared after I stopped using the creams; guess what ? one day I got cold and had some minor back pain and i rubbed my back with some grapes vinegar which I usually had in my home at the time. What do you think it happened? The next day I took a shower and while I was drying I saw my back in the mirror: all my spots where gone !!! Unbelievable , after so many years , due of the poor grapes vinegar which I always kept in my closet, all my back spots were gone, and never come back after that. Then, because I also had some spots on my legs too , I rubbed vinegar couple of times, they were gone too.
    So, dear sir, im not saying that vinegar might me a miracle cure for all the diseases, but definitely offers relief for a lot of problems, minor or more serious, and it should be tried by people and deserves more attention in studies. Everybody knows that when u have minor pains or aches due to a cold and you rub the place a few times with vinegar , the pain is gone. In europe they used this for years. How do you think people survived for hundreds of years before these big dollars medicine corporations came up? They used natural treatments for diseases like vinegar, garlic, natural herbs, etc. Garlic, when used properly , can be the best natural antibiotic.

  46. dann said,

    for example if you eat garlic and onion every day and drink one glass of good natural wine, your chances to get cold or flu are very slim ; there are some violent flu viruses which eventually will get to you, especially in the seasons but this usually it happens rarely.

  47. Marmo said,

    Apple vinegar? Try and see the result. It’s work!

  48. jdc325 said,

    dann – thanks for the anecdote.

    Marmo – thanks for the invitation to try a remedy for which there is insufficient evidence of benefit. I think I’ll pass, though.

  49. lily said,

    The problem with these natural remedies is that they are always touted as a ‘miracle’.

  50. Miriam said,

    I drink two teaspoons of Apple Cider Vinegar (with the mother) in an eight ounce glass of water first thing in the morning and last thing at night. It helps, for me, to relieve arthritis pains; It quiets the pain of acid reflux almost instantly, ensures that I have regular bowel movements and prevents all the symptoms of menopause. I have none of the symptoms associated with menopause – no hot flashes, dry skin or mood swings etc,. The last time I had a flu was 23 years ago. I am over 50. I attribute all this to the protection and cleansing provided by ACV.

    I also use it as a final rinse for my hair. ACV makes my hair quite soft and manageable. i don’t know why it works; I only know that it does and this is all I need to know.

    I also used in in the drinking water for my German Shepherd which had scores of ticks. Every tick dropped off and it was never infested again for I continue to put ACV in their drinking water.

  51. lynne forbes said,

    You can all say whatever you like, but after suffering from acid reflux and difficult digestion which was making life a misery (and fed up with taking antacids….most of which contain aspartame). someone suggested a coffee spoon of apple cider vinegar in water before meals. I can only say I got almost immediate relief and after a few days my digestion was completely back to normal. Needless to say the antacids have been binned.

  52. jdc325 said,

    To Miriam & Lynne:

    I am glad that you both seem to have recovered from your acid reflux problems. I have no idea whether the ACV was responsible, but it doesn’t seem completely implausible.

    Some of the claims I have written about in my blogpost, however, are implausible. There is little (in some cases no) evidence relating to the use of ACV for the conditions referred to in my blogpost – and it is worth bearing in mind that ACV is not without risk.

  53. Lily said,

    ACV lowers my daughter’s blood sugars when they are too high (over 150)…she is a type 1 diabetic currently off of insulin and maintaining good blood glucose levels with diet and exercise alone…very successfully I might add. ACV is one thing we started using a few months ago when I heard it could help her maintain healthy BG levels…so we tried it after a meal with more carbs than usual and it worked like a charm. We continue to use it whenever she needs it with no ill side effects whatsoever. I also take it when I have indigestion and it takes the indigestion away within 5-10 minutes. Also makes your hair shiny after conditioning…just rinse with it and voila!!! We love it…

    Oh, and good luck finding scientific studies of the benefits of natural remedies that are cheaply available to the general public…after all, if word got out, docs wouldn’t get those lovely kickbacks from big pharma. It profits them more to discredit and basically hide the info from the general public.

    Good luck with your research either way.

  54. Principle Healthcare and Layscience.net « Don't Get Fooled Again said,

    [...] a little bit more on ACV here: old blog post, please don’t laugh at my amateurish early efforts at [...]

  55. John Denby said,

    Just drink Cider ,the alcoholic variety.
    If its vinegary , throw it away

  56. Glen said,

    jdc325 Are you being paid by any drug company for this??
    I have so much anecdolate evidence of ACV helping ailments from varicose veins and high blood pressure to acid reflux that I find your objectives for this site very suspect!
    The fact that no patent can be had for ACV means there is little incentive for clinical trials and the ‘scientific evidence’ you seem to put so much emphasis on.
    Ducks can float on water……..do I need scientific evidence to believe that they can?
    ps I have NO FINANCIAL INTEREST in ACV!

  57. jdc325 said,

    “Are you being paid by any drug company for this??”
    No.

    “I have so much anecdolate evidence of ACV helping ailments from varicose veins and high blood pressure to acid reflux that I find your objectives for this site very suspect!”
    So… if you think something works for you and there isn’t evidence to support your beliefs, anyone who points this out is a shill?

  58. Happy person said,

    Dear jdc325,

    I have read your posts and I admire the zeal with which you strongly advocate against ACV. I also admire the zeal with which you expound your belief with current evidence-based studies and/or researches. I am, however, a medical Doctor by profession and have spent 27 years of my life treating patients with various illnesses and conditions. I am not going to go into the details of how and why natural treatments like ACV might work, but what I am going to tell you out of experience is this: Do not believe that all these published studies are the Word of God! Far..far..far from it. The medical science, as we know of it today, is still in its infancy..we do not have all the answers!! The human body is a complex organism and if the current medical science had been perfect, we would have the cure for all illnesses. Unfortunately this is not so. Matter as we know today is nothing but a manifestation of complex energy form. Healing this energetic body is similarly nothing but a transfer of energy and not a transfer of USDA guidelines of nutrient content. I am not saying that ACV is a miracle cure! but what I am saying from experience is that it is not wise to blind yourself with self created prejudices and to confine your knowledge to the current minuscule knowledge that we humans claim to have today. 100 years from now our horizon of undrestanding of how things work will change. We, as humans should be careful not to steer the power of our minds to the extreme in any direction. Adamantly disclaiming the benefits of ACV is as injurious as adamantly claiming it to be a miracle cure for all!
    Best wishes

  59. jdc325 said,

    Hi Happy person,

    I don’t think I’ve actually “adamantly disclaimed the benefits of ACV” – I’ve simply pointed out that some people make claims for it that are not supported by any reliable evidence.

    Evidence first, then claims of efficacy – that’s how I (perhaps naively) think that promotion of health supplements should work.

  60. jdc325 said,

    On another note, I’ve been informed by an unreliable source that apple cider vinegar “goes lovely with walnut oil and grain mustard in a salad dressing”. I have to say I’m sceptical of that claim, though.

  61. Cybertiger said,

    You are a naive little bunny, jdc352 … and a skeptical asshole! Not that I bother to read your silly little homilies on walnut oil, ACV, salad dressing or grain mustard.

  62. V ISADE said,

    Dearjdc325………………take a chill pill………..join the party…………so many intelligent people on one side and u on the other…………..u are loosing the game………..plus you seem to worry too much..and are very very defensive…………….try acv………i am sure it will help u get rid of all this negativity…………….life is beautiful and the world is full of miracles……….nobody’s perfect and so aren’t you……….your point of debate should be either for or against the subject….some smart answers from people who have their own minds shouldn’t leave u mumbling..” I didn’t say this …I didn’t say that………….!! And as far as i think ,when there will be some health issue to u or someone in u’r family….dont sneak away from the computer and make the so called ACV tonic ………Take it easy!!! Thumbs up Jonah………………….

  63. Al Capone Junior said,

    One of your best blogs ever!! Bravo!!! Hoorah for Science!!!!

    Plus that apple cider / walnut oil / mustard salad dressing does sound pretty good. I’m skeptical of lots of stuff, but when it comes to food, I’ll usually try anything at least once. I think I’ll make a chicken salad tonight….

    :-)

  64. Dee said,

    On doctor’s orders I have been using NSAIDs for years, and gabapentin recently ; things got no better. I also started to get feet muscle cramps. Started to feel woozy, went to Emergency. Was given a good going over, ECG etc., Found out I am quite healthy. Doctor said get off NSAIDs, especially the gabapentin, as the prescription combination had certain side affects!

    I checked DR. Paul Bragg’s comment that “… precipitated acid crystals get into the circulation and cause cramps. Two tsp acv and two tsp honey in glass of water allows precipitated acid crystals to enter into a solution form and pass out of the body”. I also was recommended to take Resveratrol. I have been NSAID/pain killer free for a month. No muscle cramps, increased flexibility and no pain.

    Can any of you scientific chaps out there agree/repudiate Dr. Bragg’s claim regarding precipitated acid crystals build up in the body.

  65. InModeration said,

    “Here we describe the case of a woman, in whom chronic ingestion of excessive amounts of cider vinegar caused serious health problems.” What kind of health problems? Well, the article is entitled ‘Hypokalemia, Hyperreninemia and Osteoporosis in a Patient Ingesting Large Amounts of Cider Vinegar’”

    Water is essential to human life. That’s proven so we can allow that into the argument right?

    Yet, chronic ingestion of excessive amounts of water can kill one. Do I have to document that?

    ACV in moderation (1 teasp in 8oz of water once a day) won’t kill you and it does a body a whole lotta good. Including helping one think more clearly.

    C’mon – design a controlled experiment for yourself and try it. Create your own anecdote – positive or negative based on personal experience. I dare you…. :)

  66. Tom said,

    Jdc – I thank you for the time and effort you put into this. I agree with you that claims of “Miracle Cure” need to be put to empirical tests… that said, my own anecdote supports the claim that ACV does help acid reflux FOR ME. I’ve spoken to others who have told me that it actually exacerbated their reflux. There you go. It appears to work for some, and not for others. I am a therapist and am very familiar with the “placebo effect.” I don’t think that is at work in my own case, as I went through a myriad of other “cures” before finding ACV. Bottom line: I don’t know if it will work for others, I only know that it worked for me. If you ever experience acid reflux, try it… it might help (maybe not).

  67. Stephen said,

    It’s definetly helped cure my stomach ulcer pain. Takes about 10 minutes to kick in and the pain disappears for several hours…

  68. ACC Debate said,

    Guys…. think. Look, I tried ACV and it did nothing for me personally, other than stuff another 4 bucks into Bragg’s fat bank account. So I can understand that side of it. But the thing over the esophagus damage is just silly. One (1) lady ate some ACV pills, and they got stick, burning her esophagus. That will happen if *any* acid gets stuck there. It has little or nothing to do with any real danger from ACV.

  69. ACV Debate said,

    On the other hand, ACV may leach potassium and other minerals from the body, which WOULD be dangerous. I took ACV for a few months and came up with a potassium deficiency. Was ACV the cause? Maybe, maybe not. But there is evidence suggesting it can wash minerals out.

  70. bachelor's degree in nutrition said,

    Hey. I have a bachelors of science in nutrition. It turns out that’s one hell of a lot more than other fuchs have who act as if they know what’s best for the world. for the record i hate vegans. not all vegans, not vegans the individuals, but the precept of veganism, all its bullshit and self righteousness how people who think they don’t eat eggs and shit are actually better human beings.
    about vinegar… i am currently developing a product that uses acetic acid for personal care. I found accidentally that it has an amazing effect on a certain thing, after just one use I was floored. I did use white distilled vinegar from probably that hell hole walmart as i believe it is the specific type of carboxylic acid that vinegar is (acetic acid, COOH) and not the type of fruit it comes from. I can’t imagine these trace elements that are present in vinegar being the “active ingredient” that allows people relief from ailments. If you are a vegan it would behoove you to really think about what you’re doing. It’s ricockulous. I happen to have taken what feels like a thousand semesters of chemistry, spent countless hours in a lab, and am really comfortable with different reagents and their elemental structure and atomic significance.
    I would like to say that I also thoroughly regret my degree and the only thing more useless than my bachelor’s of science from a real accredited university with real labs and chemicals where I met other flesh and blood students rather than just read about carbon etc on line, would have been a liberal arts degree. what a load of shit. Anyway, I don’t work for braggs, this blog, or big pharma. recycling is bullshit has anyone on here actually researched how ineffective it is and found how it actually harms the environment. I am sure the same people who would like to morph into a bottle of mother loaded apple cider vinegar are the same people who think they are totally amazing because they recycle and their dream car is a prius. Not all of them, for sure, but i can’t help but think that this sickness runs deep and is actually worsened by regular consumption of apple cider vinegar.
    Also it turns out that most of these schmucks are white people.
    Also, it turns out that these stupid white vegans can’t make up their minds and used to think that Atkins was the way to go. Unfortunately they generally feel really bad about themselves and can’t just relax about much unless it’s organic. and you know the kind of organic i mean i think means that it was grown in a certain way and doesn’t have anything to do with the kind of organic that means it has carbon in it, which is what I personally mean when I say organic.
    Also it turns out that what people say and how valid or true it is matters less than whether they are thin, pretty, white, and rich. It also helps if they drive a prius and recycle for sport. If you’ve read the book skinny bitch and got sucked in I’m probably talking about you.
    As far as the earlier comments about the facilitator of this blog having to carry the burden of proof that is incorrect. The nature of the burden of proof is that the one making the claim that will change the status quo must carry the burden of proof. This is learned in any 100 level philosophy class. Imagine if you didn’t believe in God and i told you to prove God doesn’t exist and if you can’t then it means He does. Unfortunately alot of stupid Christians act like vegans in this aspect and try to manipulate the burden of proof and throw it at the party who questions and this is also another type of common fallacy present in many debates. The burden of proof lies on the side who is claiming to offer a different perception than what is already widely perceived. If my couch is brown and i say it’s blue, the burden of proof is on me to show that it’s blue, not on you to show its brownness.
    Anyway, i have nothing to sell. If you want to know the truth about vegans, protein, meat, amino acids, enzymes, and want to understand the science behind it I’m the person to ask. If you want egotistical self righteous bullshit answers where you and theleaflady can crawl into a hole together and talk ignorantly about how smart you are I’d rather parish like a good.
    Peace out

  71. Frank M Jerry said,

    I have also read the numerous wonders of apple cider vinegar. I am a user for no other reason, it is the best appetite supressant on the market today. Plain and simple !!

  72. jace said,

    this was all very interesting to read. i found it because i am planning to stop taking aciphex (my body historically overcompensates for any chemical modification, leading to resistance, interdose withdrawal, etc) and i’m looking for a non-pharmaceutical solution to the horrific acid reflux that stress and clonazepam caused me. so, i will be testing this ACV acid reflux thing soon…

    thanks for the amusing posting and the much more enlightening (and also amusing) responses. no matter what the idea, there’s a zealot to laugh at. :-)

  73. jace said,

    ps: i’m not saying jdc325 is the zealot. sorry to maybe unintentionally suggest that. frankly, i agree with him and found Jonah’s postings also very interesting. good stuff.

  74. rob said,

    just a quickie,
    i had horrible warts on knees, fingers and palms(!) for several years. They began to get worse, bigger and more numerous.

    Tried duct tape, Bazuka, etc.

    Applied acv for a week. It totally killed them all.
    Good in seafood salads too. (the acv, not the warts).
    thanks for the great blog.
    rob

  75. Angela said,

    Now that I’ve managed to compose myself after a bout of hysterical laughter, the only “nonsense” I see is the preposterous analysis and commentary on this website’s challenge of the capabilities of ACV. The physiological benefits are in fact real and they are explainable (as well as easily demonstrable) but I will not waste my time to support this sham source of misinformation. They would rather extol the “well researched and proven” (with $100 million clinical studies!) pharmaceuticals like Vioxx and Accutane. The only thing is, these “wonder drugs” are now the daily subject of class-action lawsuits for the pain and suffering they have caused!!
    The “Stuff and Nonsense” staff are oblivious to the significance and wisdom of a centuries-old remedy and should seek more appropriate employment at Taco Bell…

    Angela

  76. jdc325 said,

    “The physiological benefits are in fact real and they are explainable (as well as easily demonstrable)…”
    I’ll happily accept that just as soon as some evidence is posted to support the assertion.

    “They would rather extol the “well researched and proven” (with $100 million clinical studies!) pharmaceuticals like Vioxx and Accutane.”
    Please show where I have praised Vioxx and Accutane. I have written a few posts about Big Pharma – they were not complimentary.

    “The “Stuff and Nonsense” staff…”
    Oh, wow… I have staff? Really? I thought I was just an amateur blogger (or “an idiot with a keyboard” as I have described myself inthe past).

  77. slowsmile said,

    Well, well…Just stumbled across this cynical little website.

    Recent research confirms that a combination of malic acid and magnesium hydroxide will surprisingly alleviate the symptoms of Fibromyalgia. that;s because these two chemicals combine and react to form magnesium malate which, from the research, appears to greatly help Fibro sufferers. And strangely, ACV contains a high amount of malic acid — something I guess you missed when you so conveniently defined ACVs constituents above.

    The research docs don’t have a clue how auto-immune diseases like these work, since their approach always will be via the Germ Theory…one germ–>one disease–>one cure. And since they see nothing but anti-bodies turning against the body as the cause — which an also be caused by free-radical or pathogens or immune signalling problems that incorrect assumption probably why, after over 100 years of Germ Theory” research, we still await the cures for obesity, thyroidism, heart disease, diabetes, cancer, arthritis, Fibromylagia, CFS, GWS, Crohn’s disease, Lupus, Lime Disease, Candida — just to name one or two. There is in fact, no proper explanation for auto-immune, but most recent research really points to immuno-deficiency reasons as the cause.

    The only answer that the research docs has, in auto-immune diseases such as HIV AIDS and cancer — is to further destroy the immune system. How dumb is that doc ?

    I’ve also cured — please note that I said cured — candida, gout, diabetes, gallstone problems, kidney stone problems, high blood pressure, etc — all with herbs and natural chemicals. I know that you will never believe this, but I’m afraid I simply can’t afford the $1 billion I need in order to pay to the prove the efficacy and safety of each of my remedies to the FDA. Sorry about that, I really don’t think my bank manager would allow that sort of loan, do you ?…

    Nice try doc, but your still in your socks.

  78. jdc325 said,

    Hi Slowsmile,

    I’d say I was skeptical rather than cynical – if someone provides evidence then I’m happy to accept it. I note that despite talking about research, you haven’t actually provided any evidence. Do you have links to reliable evidence supporting your assertions that you can post here?

  79. James said,

    Hi,

    I found this stream of comments very interesting, and I can’t believe it but I did read them all!

    First off let me say that I’m a physicist working on the CMS experiment at the LHC at CERN, in Geneva, Switzerland, and that I take the scientific method very seriously. Secondly, let me state that I am currently very interested in the efficacy of vinegar, particularly apple cider vinegar, for many of the things folks list it for.

    My first experience with vinegar was dealing with toenail fungus. I went to the doctor about it, and she told me “everyone has fungus there, and it’s not worth taking the drugs to treat it”. So I left. A few months later, I received my mailer from Blue Cross Blue Shield insurance, and there was an article on using vinegar to treat nail fungus. So, every morning, I took a q-tip and dipped it in vinegar, and put it on my toes. After about 2 weeks of this, my nails looked like they did when I was 8 years old. Beautiful! My fiancée’s mother tried this after I told her, and it worked for her too.

    Next was my stubborn wart. I’d had warts before, and used salicylic acid treatments to get rid of them. I hadn’t had a wart in almost 3 years, then this particular wart came, and was not responding to the salicylic acid treatment, so that’s when I decided to contact my doctor. Generally, before I contact my doctor, I research the ailment on the big boy websites to gain some background, so I have some idea what the doctor will talk to me about.

    I discovered that apple cider vinegar kept popping up as a method to kill the warts. I hardly believed it, but reading the testimonials, I noticed a string of consistent results—individuals all listing similar responses. So I thought, what the heck? They say it’ll take 2-3 days to remove it, and I have a couple weeks before my doctor’s appointment, what have I got to lose?

    Well, my wart turned black, scabbed up and fell off, just like everyone had said. The turning black and scabbing part made me nervous, so I was able to get into the doctor sooner, and she couldn’t believe that I had successfully treated my wart with apple cider vinegar. Keep in mind, I’m at the University of Iowa, a world renown hospital and clinic, and my doctor told me “thanks for teaching me something today!” I had a few follow-ups as it healed, and now my skin is perfect. She was particularly amazed because this wart was near my nail, and traditional methods, (freezing, lasing) can cause permanent damage to nail bed. She said she’ll remember that for her future patients.

    Now, what was most interesting to me from this whole experience was how little my healthy skin reacted to the vinegar. It was like water was put on my skin. However, my wart could not deal with it. It was so weird, the black, scabbed part of it had the exact outline of the wart.

    So, I will stop short from saying “vinegar is a cure-all!!”, but there is clearly some reason these anecdotal “cures” keep popping up. These anecdotes only give more reason to do a scientific investigation into these claims, and I am wishing and hoping that apple cider vinegar can be fully investigated some day, to lay to rest some of the wild claims, but then also to regulate the definition of the various vinegars, and hammer out some tested methods for applying this.

    The user “Jonah” seemed to have the best handle about vinegar, which is to say, “there’s a reason people believe in this stuff, but we don’t know why”. We need to figure out why people believe in it — is it actually working? Is it a placebo? In what way is it working, if it is working?

    And so on. However, there is some evidence that it is working. Not strong, understood, scientific evidence. But it’s a start. Now the fun can begin!

  80. Andrew said,

    jdc, James is what you’d call a visionary, forward-thinking scientist. Anecdotal claims should not be cause for alarm or reiteration of your skepticism, but impetus for further investigation. Please get over yourself.

  81. jdc325 said,

    “Anecdotal claims should not be cause for alarm or reiteration of your skepticism, but impetus for further investigation.”
    If someone wants to investigate apple cider vinegar on the basis of positive anecdotes, then great – but what I was actually complaining about in my post was the situation as it is now. People are making grand claims for apple cider vinegar that aren’t supported by good quality evidence. I’m not opposed to research into the potential health benefits of apple cider vinegar (perhaps those making claims about the benefits of ACV might like to fund such research), I just don’t think anyone should be claiming that ACV ‘works’ before it’s actually been tested.

  82. pipsqueak said,

    Goodness me, what a strange (and long-lived) thread this is. jdc points out the lack of evidence for a bunch of quite frighteningly over-optimistic health claims for a product. Over the course of the next almost four years, fans of said product find the post, ignore its contents and then berate him for criticising the product.

    Folks, it’s really not a hard concept. If a responsible person makes a public health claim, then they ensure there’s evidence to back them up. Irresponsible people make healthcare claims without bothering to collect the evidence first.

    Apple cider vinegar may do everything claimed by commenters here and the people jdc criticised, but you need some evidence that goes beyond anecdote. Pharmaceutical companies are not the only providers of funding for trials. There are plenty of funding bodies with a vested interest in reducing healthcare costs. If ACV can be shown, in a fair test, to do half the things claimed for it in the comments here, then the people managing the budgets of healthcare systems around the world would be clamouring to use it. So, why not design small-scale, properly randomised and blinded trials to test your hypotheses? These don’t need to be expensive and if performed well, published in peer-reviewed journals and show promising results are likely to encourage the involvement of scientists with access to more resources, hence allowing for larger and more rigorous trials.

    After all, if ACV does what you claim, failing to test the claims deprives the vast majority of the world’s population of the health benefits that you’ve experienced. And that seems to me to be somewhat unkind.

  83. lijo76 said,

    drug companies can’t make money from ACV, hence no DBRCTs ;)

  84. jdc325 said,

    Food supplement firms can make money from ACV, so why no DBRCTs?

  85. SBC said,

    A friend of mine was dying (and did eventually die) from Leukemia…one of the nastier ‘you’ve got a year tops’ sorts I believe.

    He went through the usual desperation fuelled search for a ‘silver bullet’, for a ‘miracle cure’.

    That search led him one day to ask his doctor whether bananas would cure him, because he had heard…!

    His doctor, a wise man, gave him this reply: “Son, if bananas were discovered to cure leukemia then it would be on the front cover of every newspaper in the world”.

    I’ve always bear that answer in mind when i read ‘miracle claims’.

    If ACV could cure half the things its proponents claim for it then it would be not only on every front cover but the ‘go to’ medicine of every doctor. It wouldn’t require any studies, your doctor would be handing you a bottle at the door.

  86. don'tneedscientificproof said,

    Why do your ‘type’ of people need scientific evidence for everything? you nerdy science type people. Really, stop with the give me concreate proof crap, not everything in life has to be proven by science… that is the mystery of life!

    I would rather trying something harmless like ACV for ailments, that usually do work, then poisioning myself with the drugs that doctors push on people. That generally just cause additional problems and costs a boat load of cash.

    the best comment I have seen on this whole tread is “Ducks can float on water……..do I need scientific evidence to believe that they can?” haha funny stuff. Quick better go do a study of a 1000 ducks — or is that not enough for you?

  87. don'tneedscientificproof said,

    P.S. “bachelor’s degree in nutrition” is kind of a pompous moron! Your post came across as arrogant at best! another ‘science nerd’.

  88. jdc325 said,

    “Why do your ‘type’ of people need scientific evidence for everything?”

    We don’t. But don’t you think it’s reasonable to ask for evidence when a product has been promoted as a weight loss aid, a cure for arthritis, and a cholesterol-lowering aid? They’re pretty strong claims – and testable.

  89. vinegarhomeremedies said,

    Congratulations Jdc325. This blog of yours has really stirred up some emotions. I just read through the entire page and find many great points on both sides of the argument/discussion. The fact that you chose vinegar as a topic plus the fact that it stirred up so much controversy I think is a plus on the side of vinegar and I thank you for that. Nobody would get this worked up about something that doesn’t help anybody.

    I am one of those people that have created a website in favor of vinegar as an aid to healthy living however I have always been very careful not to make claims that vinegar would cure. I do not sell vinegar but I find vinegar very interesting… Ok, I do have a couple vinegar product links to Amazon and make about $0.66 when someone makes a 1 gallon purchase (I have made 2 such sales in the last 6 months) but I hardly think I am a threat to the big pharma companies.

    I agree that health claims should not be made without proof if they are made in order to make a sale. However I disagree with your statement that evidence needs to be produced when a product has been promoted as a weight loss aid, a cure for arthritis, or a cholesterol-lowering aid, etc. If we insisted on scientific proof for everything we say no one would say anything and many people would suffer needlessly. If I spray some vinegar on my sunburn and get instant long lasting relief, I am definitely going to tell someone about it. If they do the same and get the same affect, I (and they), will tell others and lots of people will benefit. If someone else tries it and gets no relief (I have yet to see this by the way) it does not mean the advice was not valid. It only means there is something different about that person’s circumstances. Should I stop telling people about my experience because of that?

    If you know of a natural product that many people rely on for relief of a pain or ailment, what is wrong with telling others about it? The wonderful thing about home remedies is they don’t cost much to try, often work as well or better than prescription drugs and usually have no side effects. Of course we all need to understand that just because a product helps one person it doesn’t mean it is the cure and everybody will get the same results. It doesn’t matter if the product or drug was part of a double blind, peer reviewed study or was just one of grandma’s secret remedies. Nothing affects everyone the same.

    The only harm I can see in promoting a home remedy is if someone relies on it instead of getting proper medical attention. This is why we should all be diligent in advising people to consult their doctor in situations where outcomes can be serious. I believe however that we are running to our doctors far too frequently. For minor, non life threatening situations, why not turn to a home remedy such as apple cider vinegar. If it worked for others, maybe it will work for us and save us a lot of money and perhaps some pain.

  90. jdc325 said,

    “Nobody would get this worked up about something that doesn’t help anybody.”
    Nonsense.

    “I agree that health claims should not be made without proof if they are made in order to make a sale. However I disagree with your statement that evidence needs to be produced when a product has been promoted as a weight loss aid, a cure for arthritis, or a cholesterol-lowering aid, etc. If we insisted on scientific proof for everything we say no one would say anything and many people would suffer needlessly.”
    How do you know people would suffer needlessly if you don’t know whether the product works or not?

    “If you know of a natural product that many people rely on for relief of a pain or ailment, what is wrong with telling others about it?”
    Because you might be wrong. This is where evidence comes in handy…

    “For minor, non life threatening situations, why not turn to a home remedy such as apple cider vinegar. ”
    I don’t have a problem with people choosing to take alternative medicines for minor, self-limiting conditions. The only risk (as long as there are no side-effects from the product) is the risk of wasting your money. I think we broadly agree on this.

  91. vinegarhomeremedies said,

    “How do you know people would suffer needlessly if you don’t know whether the product works or not?”

    Here is the difference between our approaches to the question. You use the words “know” and “prove” interchangeably. There are countless facts in our world that we, at least on a personal level, “know” to be true without them ever been put to scientific scrutiny.

    Yes I may not “know” that a specific person will gain relief from heartburn if they try taking vinegar because I don’t know the cause of their affliction, but I do “know” that many people will miss out if they have never heard that vinegar can provide instant relief from the pain of heartburn. I “know” this because I have recommended it to many people and in every instance (and I do mean every instance) they have received total relief within a few minutes time. In the majority of cases the time could be measured in seconds.

    I do not need scientific corroboration to feel absolute certainty that it works and most of my friends and acquaintances did not need scientific corroboration before trying it. The ones that needed proof refused to try my suggestion and continued suffering until the pain passed on its own. Would vinegar have helped? I don’t know because they didn’t try it. What I do know is that the commercial products that they were trying did not.

    I don’t think even proven remedies can boast that kind of record. Before I found out about vinegar I tried a few of them myself with very little if any success.

    Sure you can cry placebo all you want but I don’t care. There is always a margin of error even in controlled studies. They even report it in their studies.

    I believe that if you get the result you desire often enough there is probably some truth in it. The majority of the people that tried my heartburn cure (including myself initially) were highly skeptical. Many of them (again including myself initially) were concerned that vinegar would only make things worse but in every case the relief was almost immediate and long lasting.

    “The only risk (as long as there are no side-effects from the product) is the risk of wasting your money.”

    Correct, but the beauty of vinegar is that most people probably already have a bottle in their kitchen cupboard and, in the case of heartburn, it only takes a spoonful to try it out. How much does a package of Tums cost?

  92. jdc325 said,

    It’s interesting that the conversation now seems to be about vinegar for heartburn. My blog post complained of the promotion of apple cider vinegar “as a weight loss aid, a cure for arthritis, a cholesterol-lowering aid…” I think it’s clear that these unsubstantiated claims are inappropriate. Could I ask your opinion on that, vinegarhomeremedies?

  93. James said,

    Here’s the list of studies done on ACV:

    http://www.webmd.com/diet/apple-cider-vinegar?page=2

    * Diabetes. The effect of vinegar on blood sugar levels is perhaps the best-researched and the most promising of apple cider vinegar’s possible health benefits. Several studies have found that vinegar may help lower glucose levels. For instance, one 2007 study of 11 people with type 2 diabetes found that taking two tablespoons of apple cider vinegar before bed lowered glucose levels in the morning by 4%-6%.
    * High cholesterol . A 2006 study showed evidence that vinegar could lower cholesterol. However, the study was done in rats, so it’s too early to know how it might work in people.
    * Blood pressure and heart health. Another study in rats found that vinegar could lower high blood pressure. A large observational study also found that people who ate oil and vinegar dressing on salads five to six times a week had lower rates of heart disease than people who didn’t. However, it’s far from clear that the vinegar was the reason.
    * Cancer . A few laboratory studies have found that vinegar may be able to kill cancer cells or slow their growth. Observational studies of people have been confusing. One found that eating vinegar was associated with a decreased risk of esophageal cancer. Another associated it with an increased risk of bladder cancer.
    * Weight Loss . For thousands of years, vinegar has been used for weight loss. White vinegar (and perhaps other types) might help people feel full. A 2005 study of 12 people found that those who ate a piece of bread along with small amounts of white vinegar felt fuller and more satisfied than those who just ate the bread.

  94. vinegarhomeremedies said,

    Sorry Jdc325 I did not mean to hijack your thread. I was simply attempting to prove a point that just because one may not have scientifically based support for their claims does not necessarily mean that what they are saying is not in fact true; at least for them in their circumstance.

    I chose heartburn because it has given me and many others immediate results .This is a nice bonus when you want to test someone’s claim that vinegar helps in a health situation. I could have also chosen sunburn for the same reason.

    Weight loss, arthritis, and cholesterol do not allow for the same instant gratification and therefore are not as easy to “prove”.

    I do know where you are coming from though. I don’t doubt that some sites speak of cures and remedies as if they are not to be questioned. I object to this kind of reporting as well but I would extend this to include conventional medicine. Even products which supposedly have attained scientific validation are not successful in all cases. As you probably agree, everyone is different and comes packaged with their own unique slant on a particular ailment. What works for one person may fail horribly for another. In the end, all we can do is play the odds.

    In the case of weight loss there are so many factors that come into play that I don’t think anyone can say with any certainty that a product (natural or otherwise) will help. Certainly it “appears”, from many studies that apple cider vinegar does help if for no other reason than it can help you feel full. Even drinking lots of water will help to some degree but I personally believe that vinegar does better than that. In any case “cure” is not a word commonly associated with weight loss and it comes down to personal trials. If it appears to work for you go for it and tell your friends. They may get similar results. That is why vinegar, in my opinion, has been used for thousands of years. I could be wrong.

    High cholesterol is a bit better but again there are many factors involved. At least you can get observable results when you check back with your doctor. Whether they are the direct result of taking vinegar is arguable but again studies seem to indicate they could be. For a real eye opener read some of the articles on cholesterol lowering drugs. Talk about side effects with no noticeable benefits.

    Of the three, arthritis is probably the best example because vinegar seems to produce fairly quick and noticeable results. Of course, even here, we may be misled because arthritis can go into remission on its own. You try what others have reported works for them. Hopefully you will also get some relief. If you get relief, who cares if it there is no proof that it was the vinegar. You will keep taking the vinegar until it no longer works. The important thing is you have relief and did not pay an arm and a leg for the possible treatment. People taking prescription medication don’t necessarily get the relief you just experienced.

    What is the downfall? In all cases you might be the one in a million (don’t quote me on that stat) that has a bad experience with vinegar and need to stop taking it. This doesn’t happen with prescription drugs???

  95. Chris said,

    There is a truth component to the authors article position as can be said of the content put forth by the many of participants who have posted on the subject of ACV. I agree that the outlandish claims for miracle cures are just that.. outlandish. BUT, it certainly does have it’s uses and one of the areas I agree with would pertain to digestion. Chronic low stomach acidity is in my mind, an unrecognized epidemic. Most of the cases of acid reflux are in fact treated for the opposite of their causation factor, given medication to thwart the stomach acid process only compounds the problem further– stomach acid is needed for proper assimilation of many important vitamins, minerals, and their co-factors. In result of the SAD and low stomach acidity, nutritional deficiencies develop and this again compounds the problem further since certain nutrients are required in the formation of stomach acid with the fact that they themselves require acid to be absorbed!( Think Zinc, b6, b12.) How ironic.

    Now comes ACV as a digestive aid which serves as temporary buffer for stomach acid along with meals and even some supplements, thus enabling the body to absorb it’s much needed nutrients! After a period of assistance, unknown deficiencies are no longer such a problem, and the stomach to some degree can produce necessary acid for proper breakdown and assimilation of food/nutrients without the help of ACV.. to further and complete the step to recovery, one now invokes the ancient use of bitter herbs to be placed on the tongue before or after a meal which greatly assists the the secretion of gastric juices and the release of many assisting enzymes! Now instead of taking a medication that simply covers up the symptom and eventual fruition of other ailments, you have now solved the problem by treating the cause!

    It Still doesn’t cure Cancer though.

  96. David Miller said,

    I have now studied herbal medicine for 5 years (upto and beyond MSc level) and all I can say is that there is a lot of total tripe spouted about many so-called remedies. I have had severe immune system arthritis for several years, and lots of side effects from pharmaceutical medicine. Hence, my foray into herbal, Indian and Chinese medicine. The sad think is that what works for one person will not work necessarliy for another. But back to cider vinegar…

    The main reason why cider vinegar is supposed to help arthritis is that it balances and alkalises the acidity of the body. Such nonsense is spouted that when it reaches the stomach, the 5% acidity changes the stomach’s pH favourably – the same is also said for lemon juice!

    Anyone with a hint of chemistry knowledge will tell you that if you add acid to acid it will create more acid. So the small amount of hydrochloric acid in the stomach pH1 is then in contact with a larger amount of another acid, cider vinegar (pH5).

    I have personally read Margaret Hills book and tried the cider vinegar diet myself in the first stages of my illness and it made no physical difference whatsoever. I tried it again a few years later, and the only small difference it made was that I lost some weight and, owing to that, my limbs felt a bit lighter and freer, but i still had the excruciating pain that accompanies my arthritis and disability.

    I am now off all conventional medicine except aspirin and paracetamol, but would recommend to anyone with arthritis to take celadrin and collagen supplements in addition to glucosamine. Follow a high ORAC diet (lots of fruit and veg.) and use tumeric, ginger and boswellia as additional COX-2 and LOX-5 inhibitors. Get the best quality fish you can and have at least 1000mg of omega 3 a day (not 1000mg fish oil, but the actual omega 3). and try to stay as active as you can.

    As for cider vinegar, well it is good for cleaning the kitchen floor…lol!

  97. ricklondon said,

    Medicine is not a “one size fits all world’ All allopathic, homeopathic, naturopathic etc scholars know this. What works for one may kill another.
    No, ACV probably can’t live up to its claims of being “the most important medicine ever in history; but it has scientifically sound medical properties; some of which can be lifesaving (to many) http://www.livestrong.com/article/119382-medical-benefits-apple-cider-vinegar/ Science is learning more about nutrition every day. The only AVC that has medicinal properties is raw organic; otherwise might as well drink toilet water. And vitamins? Useless for the most part (whether organic or not); they are heated to the point that they have very little medicinal properties (if any); only live foods or (live food vitamins) work; and there’s only one (to my knowledge) on the market with live enzymes “Vitamins Code”. I’m 57; and I study this kind of thing daily. The majority of health food info does turn out to be bunk; but there are a few very important aspects to it, and as one who didn’t listen way back; only to suffer 2 major heart attacks, kidney failure and too many surgeries to count; 2 years ago I could not get out of bed. Today; I hike (mountain hike) about 2-5 mountain miles per hike. I eat vegan only. I take AVC and vitamin code. I take herbal tinctures including the hottest made habanjero tincture 300,000 scoville units along with Samento; the strongest form of cat’s claw there is (grown in Peruvian rain forest); there is no herb on the planet of which anyone is aware with more medicinal properities; about 1000 times stronger than Echinicea and Ginseng combined. Herbal capsules. Only your toilet benefits. Useless and 60 Minutes exposed that scam years ago; even with the most “ethical” firms. Like I said, nutrition is experimentation. What works for me, may or may not work for you. It might even kill you, and vice versa. But after 10 years of dong it, and talking to many others taking a similar path; I can type this with a fair amount of confidence and a good amount of scientific evidence behind me to know the difference between reality and placebo. Thanks for sharing your views. Rick London

  98. Deborah said,

    Please don’t be discouraged about the negativity toward apple cider vinegar. I know the benefits I have seen taking 2 tablespoons in my tea with honey for the past 20 years. I do not have high cholesterol, arthritis or blood pressure problems that the rest of my family have. I hardly get sick and when I feel ill I drink my tea 3 times a day and usually feel better in a day or two. So, those of you that wish to trash ACV, go right ahead. I for one will continue to reap the benefits just like my friend’s 109 year old father that has never been sick a day in his life. :)

  99. vinegarhomeremedies said,

    Well said Deborah. Sometimes I think people just need to have a little faith. Taking ACV doesn’t cost a lot of money compared to over the counter drugs and if it works (even if only as a placebo) that’s what’s important insn’t it?

    Deborah, if you don’t mind, I would love for you to make a comment on my website at http://vinegar-home-remedies.com about your experience with apple cider vinegar. While you are there, take a look arround and tell me what you think.

    Steve

  100. Billy Radcliff said,

    I tried swabing apple cider vinegar on my butthole after a bout of diarhrea to clean it.
    Not good for that, definitly. Ow…..

  101. mockingbuddha said,

    it is good to have skeptics, they are cleansing, so spare jdc the flak.

    he was merely pointing out that there is little scientific evidence when compared to the ton of anecdotal evidence. for acv.

    in science anecdotal evidence has always been suspect and for good reason. except perhaps in the case of Viagra, where the anecdotal evidence from men was much easier than say, asking rats or prodding their you know what.

    science in practice is more messier and funny than what its non practicing advocates like jdc would have to say.

    in truth many of science’s advocates, as opposed to its practitioners are merely logic heavy which they think is enough to browbeat others. I am not including jdc in that list. Aristotle did logic based science and despite his many merits, ended up at the bottom of the scientific heap.

    The same would happen to many of these essential skeptics. If they did science, as opposed to talking about it. true science is not only about plodding research, but also about taking a strange and torturous leap, a leap that leads to a breakthrough.

    jdc should perhaps consider the idea that the ones who are trying acv are being scientists themselves, they are experimenting with stuff, doing science, not researching pubmed. he may retort that we should perhaps all try cyanide, but then it has already been done.

    as i said skeptics are good, they are usually the ones that point out that the king has no clothes. sometimes, they are a pain at you know where.

    have been trying acv for the last three days, the Heinz stuff, and well i should say that i notice some changes for the better. keep you posted, if you are willing to listen, or to try.

  102. jdc325 said,

    Thanks for the comment, mockingbuddha. Some interesting points there. I won’t comment on the parts of your post that I wholly agree with, as I don’t have anything to add. There were a few points I slightly disagreed with though, and I’d like to comment on a couple of them.

    in science anecdotal evidence has always been suspect and for good reason. except perhaps in the case of Viagra, where the anecdotal evidence from men was much easier than say, asking rats or prodding their you know what.

    I do think it’s interesting that, while the effects of viagra were discovered accidentally (when researchers were puzzled as to why trial participants were reluctant to return the pills when the trial was stopped, and questioning revealed that the treatment appeared to have had a beneficial side-effect for some), I get 264 hits on Pubmed when searching for randomised controlled trials using the keywords ‘viagra’ and ‘erectile’. And 29 meta analyses. So, while the anecdotal experiences of the trial participants in the original piece of research prompted interest in the possibility of using viagra for erectile dysfunction, I’m not sure that anybody relied upon the anecdotes – researchers conducted RCTs. I think I’m right in saying that, essentially, the anecdotal evidence that viagra aided erectile dysfunction was considered suspect until controlled trials were done.

    jdc should perhaps consider the idea that the ones who are trying acv are being scientists themselves, they are experimenting with stuff, doing science, not researching pubmed. he may retort that we should perhaps all try cyanide, but then it has already been done.

    Actually, I would point out that while people are welcome to try their own experiments (although they should take care and not try anything too ambitious) an uncontrolled experiment of this nature won’t really tell us anything. Someone might take ACV and feel better – but how will they know that this isn’t due to the placebo effect? And what about regression to the mean or the ‘natural history’ of the condition? If they feel better, then it might well be due to the vinegar. Equally, it might be due to the placebo effect or other factors. Without conducting a controlled experiment, they can’t possibly know.

  103. illuvatar11 said,

    The criticism of the assertions of WHY Acv works are just. They don’t hold up. And as said, the absurd mind contortions that go into explaining how an acid becomes an alkaline in the body are funny, once one has thought his way out of this trap.

    But that doesn’t mean ACV doesn’t work, just that the reasons suggested are logically vacuous, some of them.

    However, if you go to earthclinic and read those pages and pages of reports of people experimenting with the product in their own body, it is hard for me not to feel that only a peculiar person would not experiment with it on his own body to find out where it works with his own system.

    The system of peer review and such is rigged, with the pharmaceutical giants and their patent medicines having a an amoral influence on the entire process, and grossly so. The medical industrial complex is utterly corrupt. Search ‘the drug story’ if you think different.

    The hydrogen protons from the acid vinegars, lemon, lime etc. are a highly needed element. That, from my studies seems the best understanding of why these acids benefit the body. The protons can be used to offset the excess oxygen radicals accumulated thru about 2% of the oxygen we mis-breathe. This action of the protons is the best source of anti-oxidants.

    Much confusion is created by terms such as “acid and alkaline” when they are used in such a way as to distract the mind from their core meaning. Acids are proton donors. The higher the alkaline level the more oxygen is bound up with the hydrogen, making OH of a few varieties. They each have powerful effects, often needed.

  104. jdc325 said,

    “But that doesn’t mean ACV doesn’t work, just that the reasons suggested are logically vacuous, some of them.”
    I think that’s a fair point – but without a properly conducted trial testing whether ACV has an effect above and beyond placebo no-one can know whether ACV works or not.

    “However, if you go to earthclinic and read those pages and pages of reports of people experimenting with the product in their own body, it is hard for me not to feel that only a peculiar person would not experiment with it on his own body to find out where it works with his own system.”
    Or a person who understood that an uncontrolled “experiment” of that nature could tell us nothing useful (see comment #102 above).

    “The system of peer review and such is rigged, with the pharmaceutical giants and their patent medicines having a an amoral influence on the entire process, and grossly so. The medical industrial complex is utterly corrupt. Search ‘the drug story’ if you think different.”
    I don’t think anyone denies that peer review is imperfect but you seem to be putting forward a conspiracy theory about the whole system being rigged by teh evul Big Pharma. You’d need to provide some reliable evidence if you wanted to convince me of that…

    “The hydrogen protons from the acid vinegars, lemon, lime etc. are a highly needed element. That, from my studies seems the best understanding of why these acids benefit the body. The protons can be used to offset the excess oxygen radicals accumulated thru about 2% of the oxygen we mis-breathe. This action of the protons is the best source of anti-oxidants.”
    You seem to think that ACV is beneficial because it acts as an antioxidant. Now, if you can provide evidence that ACV is beneficial then fine. If you can provide evidence that increased intake of antioxidants is beneficial then please do so, as I would be very interested to see it. I’m not entirely unfamiliar with the literature on antioxidants and I’m aware that it’s not overwhelmingly positive (I may be understating the case here slightly – some studies have found that antioxidant supplements can increase mortality).

  105. illuvatar11 said,

    I already provided the smoking gun about the pharmaceutical industrial complex, but here is a link.

    http://www.angelfire.com/az/sthurston/drug_story.html

    Regarding anecdotal evidence, if your mother had a disease and 100 people told you that they had used something and been benefited, would you ignore it until Merck developed a patented version of it and would sell it to you for the family fortune, or would you dare to try it out and make an experiment of one, or should I say 101?

  106. illuvatar11 said,

    Here is something more current from the impeccably credentialed Dr. Ali.

    Science Has Not Failed Medicine, Medicine

    Has Failed Science

    Majid Ali, M.D.

    Science in medicine is widely misunderstood. This simple fact alone can provide answers to the questions I raise in this letter. Science in medical research in the U.S. is true to the scientific tradition, but medicine is on a dangerous course when it greatly distorts real data generated by valid studies to meet the financial demands of our drug and medical technology industries. For example, in 1989 the New England Journal of Medicine reported the real but meager 1.8 percent reduction in the rate of heart attacks obtained with a drug was reported as a bloated 44 percent reduction in the risk.7 In another example, the Journal reported a paltry 1.2 percent reduction in the mathematical rate of heart attack obtained with a another drug as a robust but nonmathematical 34 percent risk reduction.8 I cite a large number of such distortions of raw data by prestigious medical journals in RDA: Rats, Drugs and Assumptions.9

    Why are such data “massaged” to render the insignificant benefits of long-term drug therapies statistically significant? The answer is really simple: Americans won’t take drugs for decades to reap the putative benefit of reducing the rate of heart attack by only one to two percent. The real data do not support the long-term use of drugs for chronic degenerative, nutritional, ecologic and stress-related disorders. Data are misrepresented to physicians who then use the distorted data to persuade patients to accept drug regimens. The same holds true for mechanical devices such as breathing machines for persons with sleep disturbances caused by the stress of modern life….

    http://wiki-medical.org/science.htm

  107. Kyleah Halpern said,

    Seems like you’re attacking faith that it can with faith that it can’t. So long as you feel better about the information you’re putting out that’s all you need, right?

  108. illuvatar11 said,

    And more:

    “Empirical Medicine Is Maligned in the U.S.

    A core problem in the U.S. today is that we have raised generations of physicians who believe that diseases can be treated only with drugs or scalpels. They dismiss as quackery all empirical therapies that have been proven effective by extensive clinical experience in the hands of physicians who practice empirical medicine, employing nondrug and nontoxic nutritional, environmental and physical therapies that do work. It is profoundly ironic that those who speak vehemently against empirical medicine seem to have the least understanding of how poorly prevailing medicine measures up to the standards of science in medicine. Consider the following quote from The Journal of the American Medical Association (1993;269:3030):

    “Much, if not most, of contemporary medical practice still lacks scientific foundation.”

  109. jdc325 said,

    I already provided the smoking gun about the pharmaceutical industrial complex, but here is a link.

    http://www.angelfire.com/az/sthurston/drug_story.html

    I asked for reliable evidence, not a conspiracy-theorising article from a journalist (written in 1949) who wrongly believed that the truth about natural ‘cures’ such as chiropractic and faith healing was being suppressed. It doesn’t even make the claim that there is widespread corruption of the peer-review process, let alone substantiate such a claim.

    Regarding anecdotal evidence, if your mother had a disease and 100 people told you that they had used something and been benefited, would you ignore it until Merck developed a patented version of it and would sell it to you for the family fortune, or would you dare to try it out and make an experiment of one, or should I say 101?

    Neither. I’d expect the medical professionals treating her to provide evidence-based treatment.

    Here is something more current from the impeccably credentialed Dr. Ali.

    Dr Ali raises the valid issue of reporting relative risk reduction rather than absolute risk reduction. This is a fairly well-known issue – but it doesn’t show that the peer-review system is rigged by Big Pharma.

    Much, if not most, of contemporary medical practice still lacks scientific foundation.

    So the lack of scientific foundation for parts of contemporary medical practice justifies the promotion of ACV without scientific foundation? Really? That’s your argument? That because there are other treatments that aren’t supported by RCTs people should be allowed to promote the untested remedy of their choice without criticism?

  110. jdc325 said,

    @Kyleah Halpern

    Seems like you’re attacking faith that it can with faith that it can’t. So long as you feel better about the information you’re putting out that’s all you need, right?

    Where have I expressed the opinion that ACV can’t work? I don’t think I have – what I have done is point out the lack of evidence for the claims being made for this product. (If you disagree then do please feel free to point out where I have relied upon faith in lack of efficacy and claimed that ACV “can’t work”.)

  111. illuvatar11 said,

    “So the lack of scientific foundation for parts of contemporary medical practice justifies the promotion of ACV without scientific foundation?”

    A bunch incompetent and/or corrupt slave boys of Patent Medicine Corporations are not the arbitor of my choices. In fact, if they claim something, I regard it as rather dubious.

    The Drug Story- as expected, you attacked the messenger. No one can leave the trail for you, you are expected to put two and two together. But Let me try.

    The founders of pharmaceutical medicine were evil corrupt men.

    They corrupted academia.

    They corrupted the AMA.

    They make false studies.

    They don’t study things that they can’t make money off of.

    The system is set up so that only the giants who are part of the Medical Mafia make money.

    They suppress, murder, intimidate, drive from the profession those who won’t be their slaves, drug dealers and latter day blood letters.

    America’s people are tragically sick. They are brainwashed to pursue drugs and ignore things that actually create health in the body.

    I suggest you go read Dr. Ali’s site for a few weeks. You will find the balance you are looking for.

    Let me get back to my ACV…

    May Higher Powers direct and illumine us all. And bring their wrath upon the darkness of the pharmaceutical madmen.

  112. jdc325 said,

    illuvatar11, I asked whether you thought the lack of scientific foundation for parts of contemporary medical practice justifies the promotion of ACV without scientific foundation. You replied with a comment about not trusting “incompetent and/or corrupt slave boys of Patent Medicine Corporations”. This in no way answers my question.

    The Drug Story- as expected, you attacked the messenger.

    No, I attacked the article.
    I’ll try again. The article you linked to is a story about drug companies pre-1949 – how is that relevant to today? There’s no substantiation for the claims made in the article, and the claims made in no way support the statements you have made in your comments here. The article is irrelevant.

    The founders of pharmaceutical medicine were evil corrupt men.

    They corrupted academia.

    They corrupted the AMA.

    They make false studies.

    They don’t study things that they can’t make money off of.

    The system is set up so that only the giants who are part of the Medical Mafia make money.

    They suppress, murder, intimidate, drive from the profession those who won’t be their slaves, drug dealers and latter day blood letters.

    America’s people are tragically sick. They are brainwashed to pursue drugs and ignore things that actually create health in the body.

    You haven’t provided evidence for any of these assertions. Why should I believe you?
    I think it’s worth pointing out that, despite your claim that “they don’t study things that they can’t make money off of”, there are a mutitude of articles in the medical literature about complementary and alternative medicine – unpatentable therapies are being tested all the time. And, when there is reliable evidence to support them, researchers say so. Look at the Cochrane review of St John’s wort for depression, and the review of acupuncture for tension headaches (in which the authors the authors conclude that acupuncture could be a valuable non-pharmacological tool in patients). Claiming that ‘they’ don’t study things they can’t make money from is silly and obviously wrong. Are your other claims any better? If you want to convince me, you will need reliable evidence.

    They suppress, murder, intimidate, drive from the profession those who won’t be their slaves, drug dealers and latter day blood letters.

    Murder? Really? Is that a widespread tool of teh evul Big Pharma then? I wasn’t aware of that. Presumably, you have a reliable source to back up this claim…

    I suggest you go read Dr. Ali’s site for a few weeks. You will find the bullshit you are looking for.

    Fixed it for you.

  113. Kendrya said,

    Can people stop arguing their beliefs and just share information?? How can a dialogue move forward when unsubstantiated beliefs are continually brought into the conversation? Beliefs are not truths and when your focus is on defending your stance instead of wanting to know the truth there’ll be no progress.

    I appreciate your skepticism jdc325 and the use of your critical mind in challenging unproven claims for acv. I also enjoyed reading what people shared of their own experiences, which provide the grounds for further research, and the time people put into researching and sharing what studies there are on this subject.

    Despite the fact that I place my retirement investments a portfolio I believe will give me the best return, some people on this thread may find it difficult to believe that I am not an evil and corrupt [wo]man. Expecting ‘Big Pharma” to invest megabucks into research that will not make them money is so stupid. And then to call ‘them’ evil, corrupt..etc for not bankrupting their investors/business is ridiculous! I feel stupider just scanning posts about that.

    Hopefully over time more studies will come out that will clear up the questions around the effectiveness of acv for different health concerns, but as most people have stated, there are very few studies to reference currently. THAT said, what we do have is anecdotes that a person can use their critical thinking skills to assess whether or not it is appropriate to test the efficacy of acv for themselves for a health issue (athletes foot vs. cancer). Obviously anecdotal experience is not a controlled experience and other factors (placebo effect anyone?) can be at play. If you are too dumb to do this, I have two words for you. Darwins’ theory.

  114. mockingbuddha said,

    how long do we go on flogging a dead horse. I think placebo remains the most abused word in medicine related science. whatever cannot be explained using research is a placebo!

    why not a unicorn, for that matter?

    scientists have been using the phenomenon as a shield rather than understand why a placebo works. i am too lazy to go into the literature, but there must be a neurological explanation, at least in these fMRI enabled times as to how such things work.

    at the very least neurological research into the placebo effect seems a urgent necessity, and it looks obvious that we will learn more about the human mind and body in studying this one condition than in another.

    science is not always group based, or does need to pass double blind tests, it just has to stand the test of time and repeated tests.

    >>

    interesting feedback about viagra from jdc, but the point is that oral evidence is enough to trigger research. thank god that viagra’s effects were pin pointed, to use a pun, and short lived, and could therefore be researched.

    >>>

    in the case of the many cure alls that earthclinic reports and is copied verbatim on many other sites, it is difficult to make a research program that tests all the claims. i think that is the real problem with something that cures many things.

    given the fact that our bodies are all different while managing to stay within a range, and that the conditions that we live in are also different, it is difficult to qualify something as a drug until and unless there exists specific supportive data.

    for instance, i tried something called acu touch, a treatment where the practitioner merely touches some points on the hand, and is derived probably from Chinese acupuncture. the therapist was having problems convincing people to pay. hey, what did you do, you just touched me, does that quantify for payment?

    why i mentioned the story is that I was having a nagging pain in my shoulder, and post the touch therapy, i went to him after a fortnight, just to say hello, and he asks me how is the pain in my hand, and i was surprised because i had forgotten all about it. somewhere in the interim, the pain had disappeared.

    now this is a personal experience, and is possibly non repeatable. but will i recommend the therapist? worth a try, i would say, and will recommend. while therapists like these have a record of their successes, they sometimes fail to keep track of their failures.

    the same is true of acv perhaps, people are reporting successes at earth clinic, but the ones for which this did not work, it is perhaps another failed try.

    given the evidence of its success for many people and in different health areas, my recommendation would be, go ahead and try it.

    >>>>

    as to scientific evidence, let it come when it may. there are so many instances in science when a thing that was obvious gathered the right proof decades later.

    while someone needs to beat the warning drum, nothing wrong in trying something with so many positive testimonials.

  115. linda stubbs said,

    I read a lovely, informative book by a Doctor Jarvis who practised in Vermont in early to mid 1900s. Unlike a lot of doctors nowadays he was very open to the traditional cures used locally and did his own research into them. Locals had been using ACV for its health benefits traditionally. His research led him to believe that it regulated the acidity/alkilinity of the body.

  116. Let ACV Speak For Itself said,

    I ALMOST DIED LAST YEAR!!! It’s no joke. I got so weak at the beginning of the year 2011 that I could barely climb the 5 flights of stairs to go home to my apartment after work each day. I couldn’t shake a cough for over 3 months which was caused by a combination of food allergies (mostly wheat and dairy products), environmental allergies (factory chemicals and my neighbor’s cigarette smoke in the air) and mildew/mold growing in my apartment. I felt like I was drowning in fluids everyday for 3 months and became very worried it was going to develop into pneumonia or that I had gotten TB (x-rays were fortunately negative). I had 80% hearing loss in my left ear and 50% loss in my right ear as confirmed by an ear/nose/throat specialist. I had bloody noses from sneezing and coughing so hard and I was bursting blood vessels in my chest from the deep heavy coughing every night when I’d lie down to sleep. Sinus pressure was giving me daily migraines and every bone in my body ached horribly to the point of hardly being able to walk for several days at a time as a result of arthritis pain and joint swelling. My face kept swelling to the point of looking like I’d been in a bar fight, especially around the eyes.

    I had developed varicose veins all the way from the waist to the left foot as well as a new problem with growing hemorrhoids that were becoming so painful that I could barely stand for more than a few minutes at a time to teach (which happens to be in Hong Kong and is relevant to an upcoming point). After about 2 months of drinking ACV, I no longer had any pain at all. I found that my arthritis pain was being caused by histamines in the blood producing swelling around the joints as an allergic reaction to many things I was eating (mostly wheat) and from my environment. ACV has been rightfully toted as one of the most powerful antihistamine ever known to man. I have never experienced any real success from antihistamine drugs given to me by doctors, no matter how potent they are supposed to be, but I noticed an immediate effect with ACV. I can now eat peanuts, breathe mildew, eat spicy foods, and many other things that used to cause me extreme pain from swelling throughout my body as a systemic allergic reaction. Yes, I was tested by allergists for various allergies as a teenager, and my problems have worsened over the years to the point of becoming incapacitating. The ACV apparently protects me from pain and swelling with its anti-histamine properties. When everyone else gets sick with flu or allergies from chemicals in the air blowing down from Shenzhen factories, I feel quite normal and rarely have sneezing, bloody noses or coughing like other people do. In fact, many people here have stomach pains due to their immune systems fighting the factory chemicals in the air often. I also was getting those bad stomach cramps and ulcers in my mouth again every time the wind would blow the pollution toward my apartment. This also happened to me and several of my friends living in the Philippines when the pollution was really bad. Taking ACV regularly has stopped that from occurring.

    The color has returned to my face, my energy has returned perhaps to an even higher level than in the past, my breath smells much better (ACV is definitely anti-bacterial), I sleep more deeply when I sleep, I can think more clearly (this is not placebo…I have noticed a huge difference in my focus at work), I don’t even worry anymore about getting the flu when everyone else is. In fact, I didn’t get sick at all this winter or spring even though I had 100s of green-boogered children sneezing and coughing directly into my face at the kindergartens I taught at every day. This is definitely a first time for not getting sick all winter.

    The success stories are not merely limited to my own, either. My boss was coughing nonstop for 2 weeks with the flu last fall. I recommended ACV, so she took it. After only 1 TIME of drinking the ACV, she stopped coughing within 20 minutes. It reduces swelling in the lungs, throat, sinuses, ears, etc. within 5 to 20 minutes most of the time.
    In fact, I have recommended ACV to about 20 people, all of whom have success stories to tell. One friend lost 2 pounds in his first month of taking it. It normalized his blood sugar, cholesterol and blood pressure in just a few days, and he had the tests done to prove it. In just 3 months, he has been able to stop taking his diabetes medicine, hypertension medication and whatever else he was prescribed because all of his blood levels are completely normal.

    Another friend started taking it to lose weight. After 2 weeks, she hadn’t lost weight YET, but she had cleared up her acne problems, which were significant. She also mentioned that she noticed her hair had gotten stronger and became shinier. This could be somewhat subjective, but the story she told about her mother wasn’t. After only 1 week of her mother taking ACV, her full-body arthritis pain had disappeared.

    I know many other people whom have noticed allergies disappearing during severe Hong Kong pollution while taking ACV. If they go for even a single day without it, they begin to sneeze, cough and have uncontrollable runny noses. If you’re going to tell me that 20 people are all having placebo effects to this magnitude, I’m going to respond by asking if you’re intentionally trying to act blindly retarded.

    It seems to me that some people love to play devil’s advocate for the simple purpose of being the troublemaker. I, on the other hand, want to help people. I’m not selling anything. I don’t own a store. I don’t own a factory. I get no benefit, financial or otherwise, by promoting any product or service. I simply have experiences that I have shared with friends and family, most of which have been highly successful…only 1 that wasn’t. I want to see people healed. I have had so many relatives die in the past 10 years from cancers of various types, all of which could have been prevented or cured, that now my fervent desire is to help as many people as possible from ever getting preventable diseases. I do a lot of research from many sources, experts in many fields of expertise, and I do a lot of experimentation as well to see what works. ACV has proven to be the most successful remedy for myself and many others in many different ways. It’s not blind faith that leads me to my conclusions. It’s experiential science (if you want to call it that) and plenty of testimonials from people who surround me, not merely strangers on the internet.

    Anyone can say there is no cure for xyz disease and then stick their head in the sand and never give a potential cure a chance. That doesn’t prove anything. It takes guts and courage to stick your neck out by taking that leap of faith by giving something a shot before writing it off completely as hype. And by the way, I’m not suggesting that anyone shut off their mind and stop using common sense or logic. On the contrary, I think common sense is precisely what we need to use to stand in the face of so-called scientific evidence. We often know things to be true long before they “must be proven” by science. Once it is proven, we say, “DUH! I already knew that. It’s only logical.” So why does it have to be proven in the first place? So that someone can make money from it? And how many times have we been told that something has been proven, only to find out that the opposite is actually true a few years later (e.g.-coconut oil does NOT cause heart disease or high cholesterol but rather prevents them).

  117. Let ACV Speak For Itself said,

    …continued

    It seems to me that some people don’t WANT a remedy or “cure” for whatever selfish reasons they may have. Perhaps they have their own financial interests involved, or perhaps they just prefer to be miserable with whatever ails them. On the other hand, laziness is suspect in this case, as this thread has been going on for several years, but nobody has found any double-blind tests in all that time! They just prefer to spout off “PLACEBO! PLACEBO!” as a convenient scapegoat when anyone has a legitimate claim or anecdotal experience. I spent less than 15 minutes in Google and found a Japanese double-blind test that was helping patients lose weight and benefiting those with diabetes. Actual, verifiable tests were done on glucose levels and other things to show that all of the “quackery” which I and others who’ve dared to post as success stories on this site actually holds some merit. I think it’s time to throw in the towel at long last and just admit defeat, my cynical friend. ACV absolutely, definitely has therapeutic, healing properties and has been used by people as far back as the Father of Medicine himself, Hippocrates, for a variety of uses.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_cider_vinegar

  118. Andysnat said,

    Ahaha.

    Hahahahahahahahahahaha

    Biggest idiot on teh webz today.

    Bugger polite discussion an’ all that, the above commenter is a total tool.

  119. Let ACV Speak For Itself said,

    Not that anyone could really understand what the hell you just said, but what exactly do you think makes me a tool?

    So when we disagree with someone on a blog, the thing to do is just laugh at them instead of making any kind of valid point. How grown up you are!

  120. Andysnat said,

    I look forward to any valid point, tosser.

  121. Peter said,

    I have a hiatus hernia and was getting bad reflux. My docter put me on Omeprazole 2\20mg per day. After reading studies that suggested this medication seems to lower bone density if taken for long periods I decieded to look for alternatives especially as I had been on Omeprazole for several years. By the way the recomended treatment period for this medication is supposed to be SIX WEEKS.
    ACD looked good, but it took a fair bit of experimentation to get the dose right (50mls night and morning with around 200mls of water). Any more water seemed to dilute the effectivness ( sorry about that). It was quite effective, though occasionally I would get some heartburn during the day which I calmed down using an antacid tablet.
    Futher browsing on the internet suggested ACD was likely to also cause lowered bone density. So I tried crushing half an antacid tablet to a powder and mixing with the ACD to neutralize the acidity.
    This solution worked so well I have halved my dosage to once in the morning only, plus I have no heartburn incidents any more, another plus is it is a lot easier to take.
    So I have done my study and trials and now even published, them .Pity about the small sample of triallists though, but it has been pretty revelent to me anyway!
    It is interesting that although I have neutralized the acidity the remedial period has been extended, suggesting some other component of the ACD is the active ingredient

  122. jdc325 said,

    Hello Peter.

    The small number of triallists isn’t the only problem with your experiment. There was also a lack of a control group. I would argue that you can’t really know whether the apple cider vinegar was responsible for your recovery – you can’t rule out placebo effects, regression to the mean, or the effect of the other treatment (antacid tablets). See here for more: a rough guide to evidence-based medicine.

  123. Relish said,

    I support you all ACV group specially you Joanh!

  124. Tom said,

    Works fine for me, you effete assfuck.

  125. pipsqueak said,

    I guess ACV doesn’t cure homophobia then. This is a shame since it apparently cures everything else.

  126. Irene said,

    jdc325 wrote on comment 109: “Neither. I’d expect the medical professionals treating her to provide evidence-based treatment.”
    By the time that happened, your mother would be dead.

  127. jdc325 said,

    @Irene, you’ve apparently decided that a hypothetical disease in a thought experiment (a) is lethal (b) has no known cure and (c) can be cured by apple cider vinegar. This now seems to be a different thought experiment to the one I commented on earlier.

    In the absence of an evidence-based treatment I think I’d be open to considering treatments that had no evidence of efficacy but did have biological plausibility, seeing as we’re talking about a (hypothetical) deadly disease here.

    What lethal diseases do you think apple cider vinegar might be able to treat? What makes you think ACV might be a plausible treatment for these diseases? What would be the mechanism of action?

  128. Adedayo Adeniyi said,

    @jdc325: I live in Africa, and believe me when I say controlled tests are almost not the first thing that happens here. I know about three people [myself included] that fought weight loss, sleepless nights, joint pains and hormone disorders for years. Guess what helped us get instant results? Apple Vinegar and honey.
    Let me just tell you that your insistence in proving the ‘claimed benefits’ of ACV for you to believe them is on the same level with insisting that we needed to see other planets before we believed they exist. Did we see them eventually? Yes.
    Wait a while ok? Soon, your highly praised Science world will prove what you want.
    But in the mean time please leave ACV alone – if it works for people then it does [forget placebo effect - in Africa, we believe in trying and seeing if it WORKS FOR ME]. Period. If it doesn’t work for you, no problem. Seh Finih [End of Story]

  129. jdc325 said,

    @Adedayo Adeniyi,

    Guess what helped us get instant results? Apple Vinegar and honey.

    How do you know it was the vinegar and honey that helped and not something else?

    You seem to be very keen on the “suck it and see” approach. Do you really think that it’s reliable? I’ve written a bit about anecdotal evidence and its unreliability. Do let me know what you think.

  130. Adedayo Adeniyi said,

    @jdc325 In this case I can speak for myself. I had been on metformin for over a year, tried other medications but was still overweight and all other hormonal issues were there. Even a change in diet didn’t help. Until I began to take diluted ACV and honey, morning and night, I saw no changes, even with exercise.
    You can call it anecdotal, or ‘suck it and see’ but I know what eventually worked for me. What I am saying may not stand the test of ‘rigorous analysis’ by genius scientists, but what I know is that I am healthier, have lost weight and my hormones have stopped being rebellious.
    So, while you wait for science to do the analysis, I am achieving results. Thank you

  131. jdc325 said,

    My point is simply that you don’t know why you are healthier. You might think that it is because of taking vinegar and honey – but you can’t possibly know.

  132. vinegar-home-remedies.com said,

    Your point is useless because you can say that about anything you try. Prescription drugs may have gone through rigorous testing to win the legal right to make claims but that does not guarantee their effectiveness nor does it prove they are the ingredient that provided the relief. If I take Ibuprofen and receive relief from a headache I assume it was the medication but perhaps I was dehydrated and the glass of water I used to take the medication did the trick.
    We hear from many people who give up on conventional medicine and claim to get relief from a natural remedy. Does this invalidate the medication? No, it may be that the match of ailment to remedy was not a good fit. Does it validate the natural remedy? Maybe not but over time and repeated results we can surmise that the natural remedy played some part in the healing.
    Adedayo took apple cider vinegar and appeared to get some great health results so he tried it again with the same results. There appears to be a pattern and his belief system grows. He tells his friends about it and they appear to get the same results. Now he has validation. Perhaps not the best validation but to him it’s very positive and he feels comfortable telling others.
    The point is we must make assumptions based on our own experiences or we will face indecision the next time we are faced with the same situation. “I took vinegar last time and it appeared to work but I have no proof so what should I try now?”
    Of course Adedayo will repeat what appeared to work for him in the past, wouldn’t you?
    You will probably say it is OK for him to take the natural remedy himself but he shouldn’t make claims to others. WHY NOT? What kind of a friend would he be if he didn’t suggest a possible remedy to someone that appears to suffer the same ailment that he successfully resolved? Let them try it for themselves. If it works we have another validation. If it doesn’t we may have what I described above: It may be that the match of ailment to remedy was not a good fit.
    This scenario occurs over and over again with conventional medication. If one medication doesn’t work the doctor prescribes another.
    We can’t be sure an approved medication will work any more than we can be sure a natural remedy will work. We can only play the odds.
    Which course of action has the best odds?
    If you say you trust conventional medicine more than natural remedies I say good for you but look out for the side effects.
    If you say conventional medicine has a better track record I say prove it!

  133. Adedayo Adeniyi said,

    @vinegar-home-remedies.com,
    Thanks for coming to my defense against @jdc325 :)
    My best part was: ‘We can’t be sure an approved medication will work anymore than we can be sure a natural remedy will work. We can only play the odds.’

    Believe me, this is what the doctors do all over the world!

    PS: I’m actually female :D

  134. jdc325 said,

    @vinegar-home-remedies.com

    Your point is useless because you can say that about anything you try.

    It’s true that you can say that about anything you try. In fact, I do say that. It’s the whole point of the blog post I linked to in comment #129. I don’t see why that point is “useless”, though. Perhaps you could explain why?

    The point is we must make assumptions based on our own experiences or we will face indecision the next time we are faced with the same situation.

    We don’t have to make assumptions based on our own experiences where there is reliable evidence available. Where there is no reliable evidence it is not unreasonable to use our own experience. If something has only minor (or, better, no) side effects than there’s no harm in trying it. If it seems to work for you then there’s no harm in continuing to take it. But you can’t say that treatment x works because you tried it and it seemed to help – you simply don’t have enough (reliable) information to come to a conclusion.

    Adedayo took apple cider vinegar and appeared to get some great health results so he tried it again with the same results. There appears to be a pattern and his belief system grows. He tells his friends about it and they appear to get the same results. Now he has validation. Perhaps not the best validation but to him it’s very positive and he feels comfortable telling others.

    No, she doesn’t have validation. She has anecdata.

    You will probably say it is OK for him to take the natural remedy himself but he shouldn’t make claims to others. WHY NOT?

    No, I would say that it isn’t OK for people to make money from promoting products that have no evidence of efficacy. Which is what the original blog post was about. Claims that cider vinegar can treat the conditions named in the post are not supported by reliable evidence.

    We can’t be sure an approved medication will work any more than we can be sure a natural remedy will work. We can only play the odds.

    And how do you know what the odds are in the absence of reliable evidence? If there is evidence from well-conducted trials that treatment x is more effective than the control (placebo / other treatment) then you know there’s a chance it will work for you. If there is no evidence then you don’t really have a clue whether it will work or not. You’re blindly guessing.

  135. jdc325 said,

    @vinegar-home-remedies.com

    If you say you trust conventional medicine more than natural remedies I say good for you but look out for the side effects.
    If you say conventional medicine has a better track record I say prove it!

    I find it interesting that you appear to be perfectly happy for people to promote cider vinegar without proof but now ask me to prove something I haven’t argued but think I might believe. A case of double-standards, I think…

    Now, let’s take a look at the claim you want me to argue in favour of: that conventional medicine has a better track record than natural remedies.

    First, this is a false dichotomy. Conventional medicine is made up of those treatments that are supported by evidence – whether natural or synthetic.

    Secondly, that conventional medicine has a better track record than alternative medicine (which, unlike yours, is a comparison that can be made) can be demonstrated quite easily. Alternative medicine is made up entirely of treatments that either have (a) no track record – the remedies are untested or (b) a poor track record – the remedies have been tested and have failed. See here for discussion of treatments commonly thought of as “alternative”.

    Chiropractic may help with lower back pain (although it is no better than other treatments) but it has not been shown to be effective for the majority of conditions practitioners claim to treat. Some herbal remedies are effective – for example St John’s wort – but most of the claims of herbalists are unproven or disproven. Vitamins and minerals may sometimes be beneficial – folic acid for preventing neural tube defects, iron for pre-menopausal women, vitamin D for people at risk of deficiency. Most of the claims of nutritionists regarding the benefits of food supplements that they profitably promote are unproven or disproven. Where there is good evidence that a treatment thought of as alternative works, it is used as part of mainstream medicine (look at NICE guidelines and Cochrane reviews which are positive for some previously alternative remedies – these remedies have evidence supporting their use and can be recommended, they are considered to be part of conventional medicine rather than alternative). Where there is not good evidence that an “alternative” remedy works, the remedy remains alternative and is promoted by people in spite of the evidence and not because of it.

  136. vinegar-home-remedies.com said,

    Sorry I don’t know how to isolate your comments like you did mine so I will have to be satisfied with indenting and using quotation marks.

    The point is useless because you are using an absolute. You say “you can’t know why”. As I said that statement can be used no matter what you try so it is pointless to make. If you were to say that you have a better chance using tested and verified methods then we have something to discuss or debate. Simply saying “you can’t know for certain” merely invites a similar response about medication.

    “We don’t have to make assumptions based on our own experiences where there is reliable evidence available.”

    The reliable evidence you speak of only shows that the majority of people involved in a clinical trial received beneficial results from taking the product being tested. It doesn’t guarantee that everyone will get the same results. In many cases people turn to natural remedies because they have already tried the conventional methods and they failed. If after trying prescription drugs with no effect or worse, adverse effects, they then turn to a natural product such as apple cider vinegar and get the desired results, why would they not continue taking it and tell others about it.

    Perhaps the words “must make assumptions” are a bit strong but the inclination to try what has worked in the past is only natural and probably the best course of action. What is foolish would be to ignore what has worked before in favor of taking prescription medication that will probably work but may also have side effects.

    “No, she doesn’t have validation. She has anecdata”

    Adedayo is not a scientist working in a lab. To her she has validation. It worked over and over again for her and she tells others and they apparently achieve the same results. To her that is validation. We don’t all need double blind studies to make up our minds about what to do in our own lives and she is not selling anything so she should not be forced to keep quiet about her experiences when talking to her friends.

    “I would say that it isn’t OK for people to make money from promoting products that have no evidence of efficacy.”

    These people are hardly making money from apple cider vinegar and honey. They simply tell their friends about what it has done for them in certain circumstances. Their friends can then try it as well and decide for themselves whether it worked. If Adedayo had a wagon load of product which she was selling at $30.00 a bottle with promises of a cure for cancer I would be totally behind you in this. She is not and I am not.

    “You’re blindly guessing.”

    No you are not blindly guessing. You are trying it for yourself and I am not saying to ignore the evidence from well-conducted trials. If you are not against taking chemicals then by all means give them a try. What I object to is people criticizing others for trying natural remedies just because no one has come forward and proven them to be valid remedies.

    There are lots of people in this world that refuse to take prescription drugs because they do not want to subject themselves to the chemicals. They prefer to take natural products and are doing quite well with them. I am not one of them as I will take Ibuprofen or other pain killers on occasion but I do not criticise people for taking and promoting natural remedies. Natural remedies have served us well through countless centuries and I for one do not believe we should just ignore them outright because some company that wants to make money off us insist we only use approved drugs for every little ailment we have.

    Remember scientific research began when scientists tried to figure out why a natural remedy worked so well. Once they decided they knew the answer to that question they simply took the next step and bottled what they thought was the active ingredient. That appeared to work quite well for them so they decided the next step should be to duplicate natural processes using chemicals. I am not so sure this was a good idea but that is another topic.

    “A case of double-standards”

    It’s funny you should say that because that is exactly what I was thinking in reverse. You continually tell people in this blog to prove it. From the posts I have read I don’t think any one of them is in the position to accommodate your request even if they had the inclination to try. And why would they try. If it works for them and their friends they don’t care if there is any proof. As I said earlier they are not in the business of selling it.

    “that conventional medicine has a better track record than alternative medicine”

    I don’t know if I could agree with that because the only “record” a person can refer to will likely be one that has been laid down by the practitioners of “conventional medicine” themselves. I won’t go as far as to say that science would hide the truth but when anybody not a member of the club tries to speak up they are quickly scoffed at and accused of just not knowing what they are talking about. Read your own blog if you want evidence of what I say. Besides the question of effectiveness there is also the other side of the coin. We have all heard horror stories of medical treatments gone wrong. Much of it is hushed up by big pharma or covered by the old saying that the benefits outweigh the risk. Lately there has been quite a bit of news indicating the lies and deception of some of the big players has come back to haunt them. Check out http://www.naturalnews.com/ for some examples because I don’t feel like opening up another topic here.

    In fact I am growing tired of this ongoing discussion. I didn’t expect to get so tied up into this when I made my initial comments.

    The point I want to leave you with is that “every-day people” trying to stay healthy and help their friends and loved ones are not the enemy any more than are the doctors that prescribe medications for their patients. Most of us are just trying to do our best in a world that appears to be facing ever increasing health issues. Unfortunately there are those that will lie and deceive in order to take advantage of the rest of us. These people are well represented in both the “natural remedies” and the “conventional medicine camps”. Unfortunately, where there are laws attempting to protect us from the former, it seems that the law only helps the latter. That’s only natural I suppose. After all that’s where the money is.

    God Bless,
    Steve
    http://www.vinegar-home-remedies.com

  137. vinegar-home-remedies.com said,

    Sorry I just realized the link I gave you to Naturalnews was to the home page. Here is a better link to one of the articles I recently read about medical fraud. http://www.naturalnews.com/035715_vaccines_history_fraud.html
    There are many more where that one came from as well as elsewhere.

  138. vinegar-home-remedies.com said,

    I know I said that I was leaving this discussion and I apologize for jumping back in just one more time but I couldn’t resist. I just reread your last post and something I hadn’t noticed the first time jumped out at me.

    “Where there is good evidence that a treatment thought of as alternative works, it is used as part of mainstream medicine… – these remedies have evidence supporting their use and can be recommended, they are considered to be part of conventional medicine rather than alternative).”

    The purpose of my post is not to continue the discussion but to make an observation that I hadn’t done in the past. It seems that as soon as a remedy known as “alternative medicine” is validated by science it ceases to be known as alternative and joins the side of “conventional medicine”.

    This change of categories is never announced as a “I guess you were right” but is simply a silent shift over from the “dark side” to the enlightened camp. Even if someone wanted to argue it’s effectiveness they are immediately stopped because the remedy is no longer “alternative” and does not qualify as an example. At this rate, eventually the only remedies left on the alternative side will be the ones that truly are not effective. This is of course a good thing as there will no longer be any argument. Unless of course we change the definition of alternative to mean what I thought it always did which is natural remedies obtained directly from whole food sources rather than pills created in a lab.

    Personally I believe there is room as well as a purpose for both methods.

    Steve
    http://www.vinegar-home-remedies.com

  139. jdc325 said,

    The point is useless because you are using an absolute. You say “you can’t know why”. As I said that statement can be used no matter what you try so it is pointless to make. If you were to say that you have a better chance using tested and verified methods then we have something to discuss or debate. Simply saying “you can’t know for certain” merely invites a similar response about medication.

    The point I have been trying to make is that you can’t know whether a remedy works simply by trying it (you won’t know which of the possible explanations for a perceived improvement is the right one). If a remedy has been tested in carefully controlled trials then you can discover whether it typically works or not by seeing whether there’s a difference between the treatment and control groups.

    The reliable evidence you speak of only shows that the majority of people involved in a clinical trial received beneficial results from taking the product being tested. It doesn’t guarantee that everyone will get the same results.

    Agreed. What I’m saying is that you can discover whether a remedy typically works by testing it in a well-designed trial. This is something that we can know – whether a treatment typically works. We can know this because we’ve tested it in a way that rules out other explanations. If you simply try a remedy for yourself you aren’t doing anything to rule out alternative explanations for the perceived improvement – you can’t know from this whether a remedy works for you or whether it typically works. All you can learn is whether or not you feel better after trying the remedy. You can’t know why you feel better.

  140. jdc325 said,

    The purpose of my post is not to continue the discussion but to make an observation that I hadn’t done in the past. It seems that as soon as a remedy known as “alternative medicine” is validated by science it ceases to be known as alternative and joins the side of “conventional medicine”.

    This change of categories is never announced as a “I guess you were right” but is simply a silent shift over from the “dark side” to the enlightened camp. Even if someone wanted to argue it’s effectiveness they are immediately stopped because the remedy is no longer “alternative” and does not qualify as an example. At this rate, eventually the only remedies left on the alternative side will be the ones that truly are not effective. This is of course a good thing as there will no longer be any argument. Unless of course we change the definition of alternative to mean what I thought it always did which is natural remedies obtained directly from whole food sources rather than pills created in a lab.

    Personally I believe there is room as well as a purpose for both methods.

    I don’t see the point in making a distinction between ‘natural’ remedies and synthetic remedies – it’s a meaningless distinction that tells you nothing about the merits of either group. I think the distinction between remedies that work and remedies that don’t is meaningful though. If you’re in favour of natural remedies then you’re in favour of a group of remedies, some of which work and some of which are useless. If you’re in favour of remedies that work then you’re in favour of a group of remedies, all of which work – whether they’re designated as ‘natural’ or not. I don’t care whether a remedy is natural or not. I only care whether it works and whether the benefits outweigh the risks. If remedies are deemed to be good because they’re ‘natural’ rather than because they work then the definition of ‘good’ is meaningless to me. What good do useless natural remedies do? Alternative medicine consists not of natural remedies but of remedies that are either unproven or disproven. I don’t see where a definition of alternative as natural gets us or how you can reasonably define the term in that way.

    What is the point of a remedy? To benefit health or to be ‘natural’?

  141. Swany said,

    Somehow this study slipped past your research, and is the reason why it is a treatment for high cholesterol. Also I have cured more than one person of severe gout. It is a the BEST cure for gout.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19630216

  142. jdc325 said,

    Thanks Swany. That’s rather similar to one of the papers I posted in my update in May – I was looking for papers looking at cider vinegar in humans and was careful to remind people to “bear in mind that the study was in rats, not humans…” I posted it not because it constituted the evidence I was looking for (efficacy of cider vinegar for those conditions where people have claimed benefit in humans), but because it was interesting preliminary research. You will note that I did manage to find some new research on cider vinegar in humans but I doubt you will like the findings.

    I note that you introduce a new claim – that cider vinegar cures gout – but do not provide any evidence to support your claim. I guess I can now add one more unsubstantiated claim to my list.

  143. angry about natural remedy "atheism" said,

    jdc325 said, “Alternative medicine consists not of natural remedies but of remedies that are either unproven or disproven.”

    Hmmm…that’s very interesting, considering that you have a less-than-3% chance of surviving cancer if you use conventional, scientifically-accepted chemotherapy as your treatment regiment. This website among 1000s of others (http://www.cancer-research-awareness.com/why-chemotherapy-never-works.html) demonstrates the fact along with books upon books written by cancer researchers, scientists, oncologists, Medical Doctors and various others which all prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are most likely NOT going to survive the trauma of conventional cancer treatments. On the other hand, there are over 100 “alternative” treatments for cancer that all prove much more highly effective with success rates ranging from 40% to over 90%, depending on the type of cancer, the treatment types used and the lifestyle of the individual as well as other well-known factors. So by your definition, chemotherapy should be considered the alternative treatment. In fact, some varieties of chemotherapy are not only unproven to work, but are proven to be so highly toxic that they have been the subject of massive killings in countries such as Germany. Here’s what one M.D. has to say about chemo treatments… http://sirpabs.ilahas.com/cancer_facts.htm
    and others…
    http://www.naturalnews.com/037148_chemotherapy_stem_cells_regeneration.html

    The thing that truly sickens me is the obvious unwillingness (or perhaps, inability) to look at the same ole subject from another angle or school of thought while choosing to ignore, with stark arrogance, the so-called other side of the argument. In addition, any real evidence from genuine scientific studies is quickly and efficiently excused and/or squashed by the “obvious superior intellect” which apparently dwarfs ‘REAL’ scientific studies and testing on this blog. It’s so clear to see that government-funded special interest scientists or corporate-sponsors scientists are full of BS but THESE blog guys who are shooting from the hip are definitely “masters” when it comes to ACV and its complete uselessness (enter dripping sarcasm here please). Apparently, they don’t like the taste much, therefore it must be bad… There is absolutely no “benefit of the doubt” and no admission to the tune of “there are simply some things we don’t know” even with the high number of cases of patients having their various ailments or symptoms lessened. Of course, as with anything, there is always some potential for placebo effect, as many would love to throw the term around so easily to explain away any real potential health benefit. But how do you explain my own arthritis pain and allergy symptoms immediately stopping as an unexpected effect before I ever knew it was possible ACV could do such a thing? You can’t have a placebo effect when the patient doesn’t hold any expectation about something happening.
    What exactly do you naysayers begrudge so strongly? Is it just “fun” for you to act like a–holes or do you honestly believe you have a higher purpose to prevent people from improving their health with healthy food products, be it ACV or any other healthy food/supplement? Did you have a relative die from choking to death on a piece of apple or what? Now you want to seek revenge on apples everywhere?

    Have we forgotten that the USDA doesn’t list all nutrients found in food products? Obviously, there are other things found in apples such as quercetin which HAS been scientifically proven to repair and protect DNA in human cells through clinical research while turning off the genes which cause inflammation throughout the body, leading to various diseases including cancer. Quercetin as an extracted supplement shreds DNA and should be avoided, but within the constrains of fibrous apples, the substance is maintained as a healing one. The medicinal properties of apples are known to settle upset stomachs including acid reflux, neutralize acidic buildups, remove acids from the joints of arthritic patients and in fermented form (aka-ACV) act as an effective probiotic amongst plenty of other obvious benefits. There’s nothing “miraculous” about it. It’s simply a healthy fruit with plenty of beneficial properties. Is it such a mystery that nature holds all the keys to good health without the intervention of human profit through corporate whore-mongering? Are we really so vain as to believe we have answers through engineered synthetics but our creator doesn’t through natural process, or so blind as to not see that products which can’t be patented are always somehow demonized by the competition of greedy, slimy criminals who would rather see millions dead for the sake of their own gain than admit that their products are toxic with little or no healthy quality.

    Science in some circles seems to have forgotten how to be objective and lets the almighty dollar push it to the highest bidder. If we’re going to talk about science on here, then why don’t you use some. Stop perpetuating the myths of those who seek to reduce world population through poisonous foods, global pollution, vaccinations loaded with mercury, MSG, HV-40 virus and other toxic substances (admitted on video by the Merk scientist who invented the polio vaccine) and the totally corrupt as well as fraudulent healthcare system.
    All I’ve seen so far is one side of the argument without the other side being addressed when people present it. Not even an inkling of consideration for finding the truth. When links or videos are presented, nobody seems to observe them, but rather slander ensues. I guess it hurts too much to be wrong. Pride.
    When will people ever learn that a lack of evidence is NEVER automatically evidence to the contrary? It simply means you probably haven’t looked in the right places yet to acquire the proof you need one way or the other.
    History has continued to prove this time and time again.

  144. Jeff Swanson said,

    I learned more from Jonah’s comments than the author’s article and subsequent comments.

  145. Downunder said,

    I have tired of reading all the posts but just wanted to mention that I am a believer in the power of ACV. I began using it when I went on a control diet to lose weight, When I gave up the diet and stopped taking the ACV shocking pain of arthritis returned to my knees. The pain was so dramatic I had to stop driving the car to take pain killers. When I got home about an hour later still in pain, I took some ACV and withing 15 min the pain was completely gone. I continued taking just 1 tsp per day till I had my knee replacements. I have told many many people of my experience and several have been blown away by the relief or arthritic pain. One cousin of mine said he had not had a pain free night in 10 years up till I gave him some ACV. He will not miss his teaspoon a day. His brother was the same cursing his brother for not telling him before I did some months later. Maybe it doesn’t work for everyone, but as it has often been said there is no profit in this for drug companies who fund research so there will not be scientific proof. We just have to try it and if it works for us, all is well and good, 1 teaspoon a day will not do any damage that’s for sure,

  146. sarah said,

    I never get migraines, but I did one day for some reason. I was in bed all day wishing it would go away. finally decided to look up on the internet how I can get rid of this migraine. I found to put in 8 oz of water, 2 tablespoons Apple cider vinegar and 2 tablespoons honey (to help the taste). so I tried it (not going to lie, it tastes nasty) but my migraine was gone in 15 minutes. it was a miracle to me!

  147. kat said,

    I have been having debilitating hot flashes (1 ever 15 to 60 minutes) all day and all night. I do not sleep and I am exhausted. Today I got my order of ACV pills from Amazon. I took 2. So far, almost 5 hours later – no hot flashes.

    Praise the good lord for providing apples to make cider vinegar out of. I can’t tolerate the taste so I was hoping the pills would work. I also need help with arthritis, diabetes, weight loss and blood pressure.

    I will let you know if I achieve any relief from my wonderful health issues.

    “From the cowardice that dare not face new truth,

    From the laziness that is contented with half truth,

    From the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,

    Good Lord, deliver us. ”

    Kenyan prayer

    And off the subject of ACV.

    From age 18 to 42 I had severe panic attacks. I would say they took away the life I could have had.

    When I was 42 I stumbled across a web site about Aspartame ( you know the safe stuff that the FDA allowed to be put into drinks and food). When I read what people had posted about the stuff I decided to quit using it at all.

    A miracle occurred – no more panic attacks.

    To say I would like to pick up the horrible people that legalized this stuff by the short hairs and put them in a locked box for the same 24 years I suffered would be putting it mildly.

    I don’t need a study to tell me this shit is poison, what I find incredible is that the studies that they “supposedly” did showed not problems with this crap.

    I guess the FDA’s “junk science” is the one with the flaws. I guess you get what you pay for.

    Timothy 6:10.

    “For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.”

    While I was writing this I started getting a flash. I became a small flush only and went away – yahoooooo!!!!!!

  148. Roger Groot said,

    I just read the pros & cons of ACV and the bottom line is if a person feels better by taking it then no matter how educated a person is and has a different view I will continue to take my teaspoon of the BRAGG`S Mother vinegar in my juiced carrots as it actually enhances the taste for me also
    Unless the medical universities have changed in the last few years the medical doctors have very little prevention courses.They focus on treating the disease or ailments with drugs.Big phrama is passing the hat around to collect!

  149. Roger Groot said,

    You are most welcome.

  150. carlos said,

    malic acid fella

  151. pietdrie said,

    The older you get the weaker your stomach acid becomes. Why does re flux occur? with weak stomach acid poor digestion of your food occurs resulting in “rotting” of the food. This causes the build up of gas (Bloating), This build up of gas causes a pressure build up forcing stomach acid up into the esophagus with dire effects. Drinking vinegar (say two teaspoons in a glass of water) a half an hour before you eat will strengthen your stomach acid with good digestive results preventing bloating and re flux. Experienced in my household.

    The trend by medical practitioners to prescribe well known inhibitors and alkalies further reduces the stomach acid with negative results. The value of trading in these inhibitors is worth Billions in most cases detrimental to the health of people.

    Logically the only way re flux can occur is when a pressure build up, forces the acid upwards in the esophagus, Makes U think does’t it .

  152. Roger Groot said,

    Pietrie.Very interesting about reflux in older consumers.I would like to hear the reply from Patricia Bragg on your summary.

  153. pietdrie said,

    One must remember to my mind the stomach is where everything starts, generating the nutrients the body needs. Weak stomach acid is where most of ailments start like joint pains high blood pressure etc. Get your “engine room” in order and your body will function at its peak, shedding a lot of ailments along the way. A broad spectrum of people, not just the elder, sit with the same problem. Keeping the acid away from the Esophagus you will prevent Cancer forming in the Esophagus and the upper respiratory tract. as well as in the colon. Glad you find it interesting for the information is based on facts.

  154. Roger Groot said,

    pietdrie.
    Thank you for the additional information.After reading your second article on the apple cider either you are a homeopathic doctor or you have done considerable reading and research on ones health.I happen to be one of the hundreds who have had reversed results from a disease.by changing my diet to 85 % raw and 15% steamed or cooked foods diet that I discovered in 1997 from Hallelujah Acres.www.hacres.com.My dad and 4 brothers all died in their 40`s,50`s and 60`s of heart disease so because of the “family history: I also had heart disease with a heart attack in 2001 and a severe bleeder stroke in 2003.Was in critical care for 21 days but today at age 76,I feel much younger,have good levels of cholesterol,BP etc.Dr.Caldwell Esselstyn from the Cleveland Clinic also has a website http://www.hearftattackproof.com.that shows that is a person eats a plant based diet heart disease can be reversed.

  155. pietdrie said,

    Rodger

    I am a retired Electrical Engineer and a logical explanation must always prevail. Regarding diets one must know why it will work for you and you must take your blood group into account. Different blood groups have different pH values these values are fixed and cannot be altered. The pH of your body fluids are variable and and can be altered in a lot of different ways. The pH value of your body fluids must be kept the same as the pH of your blood group, in achieving this the red blood cell’s in your blood will go into suspension resulting in good oxygen flow as well as the transport of nutrients to the vital organs.(equal electrical Charges) Too large opposite electrical charge to your blood group will cause calcification (red blood cells cling to the arteries side walls) and will eventually clog up resulting in a Heart bypass operation. Too large like charges to your blood group will cause the red blood cells to clump together resulting in the forming of blood clots..

    To achieve the correct pH value of your body fluids the following:

    Diet for the B blood group (pH 6.8)must be say (60-70)% Acid forming foods to (30-40)% Alkaline forming foods. AB( pH 7) blood group 50% -50% and A and O blood groups (pH 7.2-7.4) 80% Alkaline and 20% Acid forming foods. These values are approximate.The pH value of the body fluids can be monitored by using Urine dipsticks or pH meter measuring one’s urine or saliva. I am glad to hear you feel younger at 76 something to be proud of in making the right diet choice. ( My wife bears the brunt of the above mentioned theories, doing well.at 66)

  156. Dina said,

    for all that don’t believe in vinegar’s benefits,,, have you ever tried it? Do some experiments on yourself, see if it works.Thats the only way you can pass judgement on it.

  157. jdc325 said,

    Or someone could do a properly-controlled trial of vinegar. Like the ones referred to in the blog post you are commenting on. Simply trying it for yourself isn’t a very good experiment. Have you read the post on evidence-based medicine recommended in the update to my post Dina?

  158. Jason Alder said,

    USDA slave. The USDA is owned by Monsanto you moron, you shouldn’t listen to everything they say like they are the gods of science. Due to the high Calcium, and other alkaline mineral content of Apple Cider Vinegar (And many other kinds of vinegar) it does have Anti-Biotic and Anti-Viral/Anti-Prion properties. One, because most pathogens prefer slightly Acidic environments, and Two, because Vinegar can aid in the denaturing and exposition of viruses and prion proteins. Seeing as vinegar is also a pre-biotic, meaning many microbes see it as a source of food, it can really help to increase the amount of symbiotic micro-organisms in your gut that can help fight off and protect from countless pathogens of all kinds, and in turn, increase the amount of enzymes present in your body. Some of these enzymes have been found to inhibit the formation of other enzymes linked to viral, and other forms of DNA/RNA mutation. The USDA clearly states its measurements are based on pasteurized apple cider vinegar (In fine print, obviously), meaning that the microbes responsible for the Vitamin K, and B-12 presence, and the presence of other metabolic and nutritional value is long gone. If you really think a quick check in with the “Godly USDA” means other sources are incorrect, you are a sad, sad human being. Why do think when you search “Vitamin A content of mushrooms” or “Vitamin C Content of Mushrooms” or “Vitamin B12 Content of Honey” on Google a paid source immediately comes up in big writing that says “0 Mg. 0%”, yet when you do real research you find out that is 100% false. Please, find me some valid, non-ignoramus proof that the USDA isn’t behind that. Its okay, you can keep listening to these morons telling you that “This is a hoax” and “This is a myth” or you can go take a look at the real world. My mother suffered from Lupus for 15 years before she finally went to an Alternative doctor who treated it at its root cause and got rid of it. She is now one of the healthiest people i know (So much for Lupus being 100% terminal). 30 Years later, at my age of 17, i also began showing many symptoms of an Overactive Immune system, which is the Reality of the “Disease” called “Lupus”. I could have gone and paid 100s of thousands of dollars for toxic immune-suppressive treatments, or i could have gone to the same doctor my mother went to, which i did, where i found out the cause of the over active immune system was mineral deposits including Calcium and Fluoride around my body. I treated myself with Chlorella, known to chelate (Bind to and break up) toxic build ups, especially of Elements and Minerals. Due to its similarity to blood and hemoglobin, it also aids in purifying the blood, and rejuvenating the production of stem and blood cells in the Bone marrow. Chlorella, which comes from Algae (The base food of the entire planet), is naturally alkaline (Spirulina, its source, only grows in Alkaline water bodies), meaning it has a higher concentration of Repairing, Anti-Free radical damage OH- Ions. The original doctor who diagnosed me has called back many times urging i come in for check ups, and i have yet to go back (Never will) and am still 100% Lupus free and healthier than ever. I hope some of the readers who see this comment will wake up. The most ironic part is that most of these “Hoax Watch” blogs have no idea what real science is. Go study some quantum physics folks. Most of them, including this one, “Quackwatch”, and the “Raitonalwiki” pages have been proven wrong by people with real educations.

  159. Johnathan said,

    I completely lost all faith in Western Medicine after a family member with “Hypopituitarism” spent 3 years at different hospitals, and none of which could tell her that there are multiple glands that produce the hormones he was deficient in, and for the entire 3 year period they assumed the problem was coming from the Pituitary Gland. The human body, ESPECIALLY the endocrine system, is a very complex thing. Just because a problem appears to be in the one gland, it may be coming from another. This is basic biology. Too bad basic biology and money don’t go hand in hand. Which is why we have synthetics, Genetic modification, etc. Money money money. Would all these “Natural Remedy Atheists” (As someone else put it so well) care to explain how the Yogi Indians are famed with having the longest average lifespan, often 100 years plus, and follow herbal medicine routines when it comes to taking medicine for aliments at all? (Medicine is far from the only option. Nutrition, Exercise, Lifestyle, Detox, Structural, Energy, Etc.)

  160. Johnathan said,

    BOYCOTT THE USDA AND FDA.

    FDA: “Colloidal Silver has no Anti-Biotic Properties, and is harmful as it turns skin blue!”

    Health Canada: “Colloidal silver has been found effective against MRSA infections and other hospital resistant infections. The blue dis-colouration given to skin is only caused by the use of non-colloidal silver products, and has no known negative health effects at that”

    MIT University: “Colloidal silver has been found to improve the function of Anti-Biotic compounds by many times.”

    FDA: “Cannabis Kills”

    Neurobiologists all over the world: “Not only does the human body both have its own Endo-Cannabinoid system and Produce its own Endo-Cannabinoids, but they are also found in FDA Approved plants such as Cacao and Echinacea. Both of these plants are considered beneficial to your health, even in western medicine”

    ^^^^^ YEAH, AND THERES NO MONEY IN THE PROHIBITION OF CHOCOLATE AND ECHINACEA.

    BOYCOTT THE FDA AND USDA.

  161. Johnathan said,

    USDA: “BT Toxin from GM Crops does not make it to you dinner plate”

    LOGIC: “To your dinner plate” isn’t a set time. Some food takes years to make it to your dinner plate, some food takes mere days. It is impossible for this claim to be validated by any scientific data, and is clearly based on the USDA being owned by the Company that produced BT ready seeds, Monsanto.

    ASHBRIDGES BAY WASTE WATER TREATMENT PLANT: Detects BT toxin in their digesters.

    AN EX MONSANTO CORPORATION LAB WORKER: “I refuse to support the claims of the Monsanto Corporation that their products are completely safe because the evidence does not support it”

    MOST OF EUROPE BASED ON THIER SCIENTIFIC FINDINGS: -Bans the Import of not only GM food products, but most North American produce.-

    FDA: “Hot peppers cause liver damage.”

    Blood Tests: “Hot pepper users showed a decrease in the amount of blood enzymes that are released when the liver is damaged.”

    FDA: “Fluoride prevents tooth decay.”

    Statistics Canada: “Fluoridated countries have no lower rates of tooth decay than non-fluoridated countries, and Osteoporosis rates in Fluoridated Countries are higher”

    Health Canada: “Fluoride has only ever been shown to effect the teeth on topical use. The ingestion of fluoride, especially in non-biological form over a long period of time, and persistently, has been linked to mineralization problems, especially in the bones. This includes osteoporosis. Too much fluoride can cause fluorosis of the kidneys, and deposits on glandular organs of the endocrine system”

  162. Chris said,

    “BOYCOTT THE USDA AND FDA.”

    That is very easy, just stop living in the United States of American, since they do not have jurisdiction elsewhere. Since you seem to admire Indian Yogis, then perhaps you should move to India or Nepal. And if you really really hate any kind of government or commercial entity, try Somalia.

  163. Eugene Huang said,

    Scientists think they know everything don’t they. Look what they brought us. Antacids amongst other things! So come again?

  164. Inge said,

    Very interesting to see such a raging debate – everyone is so passionate about what they believe. Much is well-written. Good on you for keeping your heads and not getting nasty (largely), but also keep an open mind either way.

    I have a basal cell carcinoma on my nose and have an appt with a plastic surgeon in a few weeks. I hear the surgery is a bit butcher-like and one is semi-awake during it, so today I bought an eggplant and some unfiltered apple cider vinegar to apply to it, just until I see the surgeon, and just in case it works. If it appears to go away, I’ll get a professional opinion about whether any residual cancer remains and obviously go for the surgery, right along mainstream lines if it’s still there.

    Either way, something has to happen to the BCC. But as a fainter who doesn’t manage local surgery well, and because the surgeon has the job to excise and not to help me manage the process or to see me again any time soon, it’s a short-term relationship we will have. As a result, I’m trying the natural remedy first. It can’t hurt me, can’t make the BCC worse, and the surgeon’s not available until next month.

    For info, the reason I am even thinking about the ACV/eggplant thing is that I have a wart on my forehead that I’ve been treating with apple cider vinegar for about six weeks. It’s reducing in size and is almost flat now.

    I’ve had it burnt off twice, but it comes back. Potentially with the eggplant ingredient it may just go away altogether – a self-experiment I am willing to undertake. Perhaps it’ll be found sometime down the track that I have sheep genes deep in my Australianess :)

    Wish me luck.

  165. Poo said,

    Fascinating discussion!

    Anecdotal: My dog had a yeast infection and I cured it by giving him ACV four times a day topically. It made him stop itching and went away in less than a week.

  166. Teresa said,

    I am so happy to read this blog. 5 years ago I, and my family moved to a very humid country. My son developed an ear infection every 4 months, and for 2 years he was treated with antibiotics. It was all that the doctor could do. I treated him with ACV 3 years ago and for 3 years he has not received any antibiotics. Every 2 months I clean his ears with ACV. The problem is our own acidity/alkalinity of the body. My son also suffers from Dandruff. Dandruff is also caused by acidity/alkalinity of the body. My son sweats a LOT. I have never tried ACV on myself. However I am going to try it for my sinus. I started today. My son calls it the miracle cure. Unfortunately the doctor would not prescribe the antibiotics until his ears were infected, and extremely painful. He would suffer for 1 week beforehand. I also use ACV for his dandruff. Hence to him its the “Miracle Cure”. No one wants to be in pain. No one wants to see a child in pain. My son was only 7 years of age at the time he started to have problems with his ears. He never had any problems in our previous country of residence. I re-searched a home remedy on the internet only because the doctor had no solution for me, but to prescribe him antibiotics. It is not a MIRACLE CURE, but it is an aid. Good luck! to anyone who uses it. I hope it works for you to.

  167. Christina Susan Matthson said,

    This has been a fascinating discussion. I’ve been a skeptic for years about ACV. I have a friend who encourages me to use it when I feel a cold coming on and for losing weight. I laughed it off…..until recently. About 2 months ago, I was feeling significant and sudden pain in my toes, ankles, elbows, wrists and fingers. It all happened within about a week, out of nowhere. It was a big disappointment because my brother was diagnosed with psoriatic arthritis when he was my age. When I told him about the symptoms, he said ‘you have it’. About 2 weeks ago, after reading a LOT about ACV, I decided to give it a try. I noticed slight improvement about 4 days ago. And today the pain is 80% gone. I could barely lift a carton of milk before because the pain in my elbow and wrist was that bad. My joints were making an awful cracking sound almost constantly but that problem has greatly subsided as well. An added benefit, my dandruff (presumably the start of scalp psoriasis that goes with the arthritis) has greatly reduced. My skin, which has been problematic all my life actually looks healthy and clear. Time will tell where this leads but 2 weeks into a 3 time a day glass of vinegar water – I’m very very happy with the results. I can’t give you scientific reasons for it, but I trust that God put in nature what no man can provide through science. Just sayin’. Give it a try if you haven’t alreayd.

  168. J. Squirrel said,

    I think jdc325 must work for one of the big pharma companies…I used this stuff THREE TIMES, and my hot flashes went away for six months. They came back, I took it TWO TIMES, and haven’t had one since…personal experience means more to me than 10 “scientific” trials.

    Ladies, this stuff DOES work, at least for some people, for hot flashes, so it is at least worth giving a try.

    I won’t be responding to your pessimistic (pro-pharma) comments jdc325, just wanted to add a current post suggesting women give this a shot.

  169. mythbuster said,

    Hey Squirrel, this site is full of septic bone heads who think anything published in a peer reviewed medical rag is the truth! They believe in swine flu and even think there is a shot for it!

  170. E for Enzymes said,

    I appreciate the investigation into the claims about ACV. A lot of what is said about the product is ridiculous, I agree with you there.

    What I am disappointed by is that there is no discussion about the ACV with “the mother”, which contains many enzymes (that are visable in the product) that aid with digestion of food and promotion of beneficial bacteria. In other words, there’s no evaluation of it as a prebiotic or probiotic, which for someone with intestinal inflammation, could mean the difference between a cure, and just some odd vitamin alkaline supplementation. Odd fact: 90% of serotonin is synthesized in our gut, so the health of these cells would lead to someone experiencing a very positive feeling of being better and healthier. That to me is more reasonable to accept than the idea that there are thousands of people over however many thousands of years that just don’t know when something works or does not work for them.

  171. Amit said,

    I have been suffering from knee pain from a torn miniscus ligament for 8 months. last week i started taking ACV with baking soda.( 1table spoon and 1/4 of it is the baking soda). The knee pain has almost gone.down to maybe just 20%. in 3 days. knee is still weak but the flexibility is back and i can run a bit now. ACV worked for me for acid reflux also. I would however recommend to take a good vitamin B complex spaced 3 hrs from the ACV. and do make sure you take enough calcium in your diet( Milk etc). btw i am 45 have BP and BPH. BPH symptoms are better too.

  172. esG said,

    if any one of u would quit copying and pasting ten paragraphs you found on ten websites, and get a bottle of braggs (which costs nothing)- dilute one capful twice a day in a cup of warm water, sweeten with whatever u like except artificials or sugar, knock it back for 30 days, then come back and say he saw nothing change in his physiognomy- NOTHING- then there would be more reason to rate this article.

    there is no single better and more multi-purpose help for the body than pure ACV. No-one out there who says it worked for them is trying to sell anything for big companies, or “fool a gullible public”. the research on ACV and its use for regularising so much of the body’s common ailments dates back to before any big companies got their start. Simply- people and their neighbours back then knew what worked and used it, without going nuts online wondering if a 5% APPLE REDUCTION diluted in WATER was going to harm them. there’s more danger in your weekend sixpack of coors lite than ACV. sheesh. try it, come back and say it didn’t work with PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. i dare you…

  173. Royce said,

    jdc325 is crazy! Oh the FDA & USDA said it doesn’t work so I guess it doesn’t, maybe I should just take some pharmaceuticals that come with anal bleeding side effects?!!

    WHAT A JOKE! Of course there aren’t studies confirming it because there is no money in ACV & last I checked BIG PHARMA = BIG BUSINESS.

    I’ve been drinking it with raw honey, lemon juice & cinnamon for a few years now & haven’t been sick since. I laughed all through flu season, everyone I know got it, but not me… I’M INVINCIBLE ON THIS STUFF!! Lol

    I have a BS in environmental geology & certainly value science, but I also know how the world works & runs on money & profiting off the impressionable masses.

    HAVE FUN BEING A PHARMA FOOL FOR LIFE, jdc325!

  174. Royce said,

    Also, for anyone happening upon this old article, as I did, ALL THE USDA STUDIES USED FILTERED, PASTEURIZED ACV. We are talking about RAW, UNFILTERED, UNPASTEURIZED ACV. HUGE DIFFERENCE, as stated by previous posts. Bragg does not = Heinz.

    It’s like comparing ketchup to raw tomatoes, although ketchup is probably much closer to raw tomatoes than filtered, pasteurized apple cider vinegar is to the raw ACV. They strip it of all the good stuff, it is nowhere near the same!!!

  175. jdc325 said,

    I have a BS in environmental geology & certainly value science, but I also know how the world works & runs on money & profiting off the impressionable masses.

    Well, that’s certainly true. In fact, I hear some people profit from telling the impressionable masses that condiments can cure all manner of illness.

  176. curtis said,

    As a natural health professional the benefits of acv are well known

  177. mythbuster said,

    cider vinegar doesn’t ‘cure’ anything you idiots. The modern diet is so sterile that the mycrozimal activity is virtually non existent. The point of cider vinegar is that it is a ferment, it is alive and that is the kick start that it gives to so many conditions provoking the cleaning systems into recovery.

    Some people still believe that conditions like arthritis or flu are magic ‘diseases’ that just get inhailed or caught or maifest from magic gene failures.

    These modern medical mythologies need challenging on every leve

  178. mythbuster said,

    “Well, that’s certainly true. In fact, I hear some people profit from telling the impressionable masses that condiments can cure all manner of illness.
    Curtis said,” j20 speaks from the medical oracal once again.

    No different to idiots at the CDC telling us we will all die unless we buy their untested vaccine lotion. Good job most people ignore the cunts.

    Maybe I should start a computer company, invade everyone’s personal space, invent gadgets we don’t need and then retire after buying shares in a vaccine company and force the jollop on third world countries, make them pay for it and when they complain there is more disease, threaten to fuck up their aid budget by influencing the arseholes that made me rich.

    ohhh it has already been done boys – did you get that shot?

  179. bodybuilding testosterone pills said,

    Hello i am kavin, its my first occasion to commenting anywhere, when i read this article i thought i could also create comment due to this
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  180. JoeJ said,

    Great article. Absolutely amazed at how few of the subsequent posters appear to have read, or understood it.

  181. jwwetzel said,

    One area of medicine vinegar is getting much use is in dermatology. Many skin infections and conditions, from warts to ringworm to eczema are being treated with bandages dipped in vinegar at ‘real’ dermatology clinics.

    One reason you may have trouble finding literature on the subject may be using the search term “vinegar”.

    The active ingredient is acetic acid. This search yields >7000 results.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=acetic+acid

  182. Beatrice Abfalter said,

    Comments if you had to try, in 2001 I was diagnosed with diverticulitis a disease of the gut, having this causes infection from foods getting stuck in the small pouches in gut, living in the woods, 115 miles from the hospital, my only recourse was to try an heal my painful tummy, taking Apple cider vinegar with honey and water or apple juice , no food, for three days, did heal me so I could eat again, I then included it in my diet, a cup, with every meal, later on about two months after, I was diagnosed with breast cancer, but the cancer was so small, after surgery, They forego on radiation treatment and the chemo, I did take anti cancer pill in the morning.
    My diet cannot ever go back to eating the foods I did before all this, if I do eat wrong, say too much white foods, my guts say, by hurting. Limited almost to exclude red meats.

  183. Keith Williams said,

    The placebo effect is real however I don’t think it applies to apple cider vinegar. you have to be careful though vinegar is an acid.

  184. amit241 said,

    Anyone want to theorize how it works?

    I get that acetic acid would get protonated in the stomach and become acetate. Does that reaction do something to something to stomach tissue or react with gastric juices?

    What happens with the rest of the GI tract?

    Does it get absorbed in the circulation? If so how does it interact with the liver and kidneys?

  185. Hermione Hairpie said,

    ACV has been a miracle cure for me! I’ve been suffering from crotch rot for a few months now and it’s really impacted my love life. I got to talking to the homeless lady that hangs out in front of the free clinic the other week and she recommended ACV to treat my festering gooch.

    Figuring I had nothing to lose I went to the corner market and got the biggest bottle of Bragg’s ACV I could find. I was so excited about this possible cure that I couldn’t wait to get home to try it. So I slinked into the back alley behind Walgreens and lay down on top of the garbage dumpster on my back. Since I wasn’t wearing panties (never do) it was easy to up-end the bottle right into my stanky gash. I easily took the entire bottle and, pinching myself tightly closed, I hopped off the dumpster and did some window shopping. After about a half-hour I decided it was time to empty myself so I hiked up my skirt and squatted in one of those large planters they have at the mall right outside of Crate and Barrel. I will spare you the gory details but suffice to say, I didn’t know a human being could have actual barnacles growing inside them. You learn something new everyday I guess.

    At any rate, my foul smelling cunny now smells like a fresh Caesar salad, replete with anchovies and eggs, all thanks to the miracle of ACV! Scientific evidence be damned! If you want proof all you have to do is ask one of my johns how nice my snatch is now compared to how funky it used to be.

    I love you ACV! You gave me my life back! :)

  186. mythbuster said,

    yeah, j20 is one of those pharma huggers, if it ain’t in a tube – he ain’t sucking. That’s some crazy medical belief system ya got there y’all.

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