Vaccines: Shiv Chopra And Joseph Mercola

January 11, 2010 at 2:40 pm (Anti-Vaccination, Dr Joseph Mercola) (, , , , , , , , )

Swine flu exists. Flu vaccines are protective against influenza. The benefits of vaccination against seasonal flu and swine flu probably outweigh the risks of vaccination. Every year many people suffer and die from seasonal influenza, particularly the elderly, children younger than age 2 and people with other medical conditions or weakened immune systems. These are just some of the things you might like to bear in mind as you read the following.

In this video, Joseph Mercola describes meeting Shiv Chopra at a National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) conference. Chopra trained as a veterinarian in India and later worked in veterinarian vaccines. Mercola claims that Chopra is one of the single most qualified people in the world to discuss vaccines.

Here’s the expert opinion on the swine flu vaccine…

Mercola: Do you think the swine flu works?

Chopra: No flu vaccine has ever worked. Swine flu, we don’t even know there is such a thing. It’s a misnomer. Avian flu, these are all made-up things. The whole thing is a hoax. It has been for the last 10 years. First they started with the avian flu, and then swine flu.

That’s quite a startling claim right at the beginning of Chopra’s statement. It’s not just startling, it’s also untrue.

This abstract, for example, states that “A review of the published literature shows that vaccination of children, healthy younger adults, the elderly, and both children and adults with high-risk medical conditions provides substantial benefits, although the types of benefits vary by age.”

This one looks at “estimates of 4 measures of vaccine efficacy for live, attenuated and inactivated influenza vaccine”. If no flu vaccine has ever worked, then why can I find these academic papers on the benefits of flu vaccines and on the efficacy of different flu vaccines? Does Chopra have a different definition of “worked” than I do?

As for the daft assertions that avian flu and swine flu are hoaxes… I hardly know where to start. Chopra doesn’t suggest who the hoaxers are or what their motive(s) may be. Nor does he provide any evidence that there has been any hoax. It’s almost as if it’s something he just made up.

Here’s why Chopra thinks that bird flu is a hoax…

Chopra: Birds have lived on the Earth for 65 million years, so have their viruses including the bird flu. By now if bird flu was killing poultry and birds then all those birds and poultry should have died – by now there should be no birds on the earth. If there are, they should be immune. How is it that the bird flu virus remains in the birds?

I think I can help to clear up Chopra’s confusion. I don’t recall ever hearing anyone claim that all birds would be infected by bird flu or that all birds who were infected would die. If Chopra has got it into his head that infection and mortality rates for avian flu are both 100%, then I think I can perhaps see how this confusion arisen. It seems that one or two simple misconceptions, when coupled with rather simplistic logic, can easily lead to a confused ‘vaccine expert’.

Here is Chopra’s view of the 1918 flu epidemic:

How come they never talked about this influenza in India? We never heard of it. I never heard of it. [...] People say too much aspirin – there were no controls, we didn’t know how aspirin really worked and what damage it did. Some people may have died from internal bleeding, by taking too much aspirin and trying to bring the temperature down.

Chopra states that he never heard of the 1918 flu outbreak. Not having heard of something that happened before you were born doesn’t necessarily mean that it didn’t happen…

Dr Chopra doesn’t seem to offer any support for his claim that aspirin might have caused the 1918 flu deaths. All we get from Chopra is that “people say too much aspirin…” – we don’t get to hear which people say this, or why they say it. Chopra apparently believes that millions of people died from internal bleeding due to aspirin overdose rather than influenza and related diseases. There’s some rather more realistic comment on the 1918 flu outbreak: here and here.

Chopra’s thoughts on the testing of vaccines:

What I’m saying categorically is that vaccines have never been tested. Vaccines other than smallpox have never been tested for safety or efficacy, as they should have been.

Chopra is now claiming that vaccines have never been tested. Really? For swine flu vaccination, “both non-clinical and clinical testing is being done to gain essential information on immune response and safety. The results of studies reported to date suggest the vaccines are as safe as seasonal influenza vaccines.”

About six months before Mercola posted the audio clip of his interview with Chopra, it was announced that in Australia the first human trials of a swine flu vaccine were to begin. The National Institutes of Health have a page here that includes information on early results from trials of the swine flu vaccine announced last year.

As for other vaccines, there is the example of the Measles, Mumps and Rubella virus: MMR was thoroughly tested before it was introduced. These tests followed the routine procedures for the testing and licensing of all new medicines and vaccines at that time.

But it doesn’t really matter what I write about swine flu, seasonal flu, or vaccination. I don’t expect that more than 200-250 people will ever read this blog post – and most of them will probably have perfectly sensible views on vaccination. Joseph Mercola, on the other hand, has written an irresponsible blog post (with an embedded video of his interview with Chopra) that has already been viewed by over 50,000 people. Presumably, many of those 50,000 will either be unsure about vaccination or will be opposed to it. Mercola is reaching those people, I am not. This cannot be categorised as anything but a failure.

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72 Comments

  1. Neuroskeptic said,

    The 1918 “Spanish” flu did strike India – here is a contemporary paper reporting on the outbreak: http://www.jstor.org/stable/20425441 and elsewhere I’ve seen claims that 5% of the Indian population died of the flu, which is worse than elsewhere (although not much worse, it was bad everywhere).

    As for why no-one mentioned it, few people mention it anywhere. One book about the flu was called America’s Forgotten Pandemic because… people forgot it. Or didn’t like to talk about it: http://www.amazon.com/Americas-Forgotten-Pandemic-Influenza-1918/dp/0521386950

    Given which I’d be surprised if India were any different.

  2. uberVU - social comments said,

    Social comments and analytics for this post…

    This post was mentioned on Twitter by jdc325: Vaccines: Shiv Chopra And Joseph Mercola: Bizarre anti-vaccine assertions and conspiracy theories from Shiv Chopra… http://bit.ly/6IoGcu

  3. draust said,

    Ahhh.. so that’s the Dr Chopra that “WakeUpPlease” was plugging on the other recent vaccine thread.

    Judging by the quotes above he sounds like he is away with the fairies – so just the sort of person WakeUpPlease would regard as an authority..

  4. MN Steve said,

    His father is nearly 100 years old and lived in India at the time, that’s what he was referring to in regards to not hearing anything about it at the time.

    Seems there are plenty of studies showing that flu vaccines are ineffective, especially in the elderly

    Here’s a report detailing them not effective in children either

    http://www.thoracic.org/sections/publications/press-releases/conference/articles/2009/abstracts-and-press-releases/joshi.pdf

    Guess it all depends on the motive for sponsoring the study as is pretty much the case for all studies.

  5. Neuroskeptic said,

    “His father is nearly 100 years old and lived in India at the time, that’s what he was referring to in regards to not hearing anything about it at the time.”

    Well his father’s an idiot, then, because it did happen. Do you dispute that?

  6. jdc325 said,

    M N Steve – thanks for the comment and the link. I should point out that the link is to a press release for a conference abstract rather than to published research that has been peer-reviewed. The conclusions of the abstract are that:

    1) TIV did not provide any protection against hospitalization in pediatric subjects’ esp. children with asthma. On the contrary, we found a 3-fold increased risk of hospitalization in subjects who did get the TIV vaccine.This may be a reflection not only of the vaccine effectiveness but also the population of children who are more likely to get the vaccine.
    2) More studies are needed to assess not only the immunogenicity but also efficacy of different influenza vaccines in asthmatic subjects.

    The researchers looked at the effectiveness of the influenza vaccine in preventing “Flu-Related Hospitalizations in Asthmatic Children” – which is not quite the same thing as “flu vaccines not effective in children.”

  7. jdc325 said,

    Neuroskeptic – thanks (as always) for your comments and links.

    Dr Aust – thanks for commenting. I thought you might enjoy reading about Chopra.

  8. Cybertiger said,

    It seems the Council of Europe is thinking along the same lines as Chopra.

    http://www.pharmatimes.com/WorldNews/article.aspx?id=17147

    And it also seems that Britains swine-flu hero, Professor (Sir*) David Salisbury, is intent on pulling the wool over the eyes of the taxpayer, over his little scam with his big buddies of the vaccine-industrial-complex.

    http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/340/jan11_2/c170

    “The Department of Health in England is negotiating with GlaxoSmithKline over what can be done with millions of doses of swine flu vaccine it has ordered under contract from the company but that are now unlikely to be needed…. But the government signed up to around 90 million doses in May 2009, with buying power for up to 132 million if a pandemic were declared.

    David Salisbury, the health department’s head of immunisation, said … He would not be drawn on the details, but how much of the total order could be recouped was under discussion, he said. Options included selling or giving away the surplus stock. Another idea is to use the adjuvant, which is supplied separately, for a different pandemic.”

    Who’s going to buy the surplus stock? Another pandemic? So this was just a rehearsal for the big one next year! and the year after that. This really is the Basil Fawlty of the 10 * Hotel Vaccinology talking … and you can’t possibly make this sort of stuff up.

    * No honour for the New Year 2010, but the big goon will almost certainly pick up the big gong at the Queen’s next birthday.

  9. Milt said,

    Great writing, great information. Thanks very much.

  10. Neuroskeptic said,

    Yeah, Big Pharma must have been behind the Swine Flu “scare”, it’s not as if everyone who understood basic virology was scared at first and then decided to adopt a precautionary attitude, I mean influenza has never killed anyone right? It certainly didn’t kill tens of millions in 1918. Or if it did, it never will again, lightning never strikes twice.

    Big Pharma are behind quite a lot of health scares, as readers of my blog will know, but not this one.

    Still waiting for that photo of you with your medical degree Cybertiger!

  11. jdc325 said,

    Thanks for the kind words Milt.

  12. endofatheism said,

    go shoot yourself in the head…

    THE DANCE OF DEATH ON THE WORLD TRADE CENTER

    THE END OF ATHEISM:

    http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/browse_thread/thread/a6147f423c8631f7#

  13. Skeptico said,

    Another Chopra who supports woo. Who would have thought?

  14. Pareidolius said,

    Skeptico, you took the words right out of my mouth. However the breathtaking stupidity of this Veterinary Chopra is staggering. I mean come on, if you’re just going to make shit up like that you may as well just shut your eyes, plug your ears and yell in your best Pee Wee Herman voice: LA LA LA LA NO VACCINES LA LA NO VIRUSES NO NO NO FLU IN INDIA LA LA LA!
    I’m used to nutty Chopras by now, but this one really takes the chapati. I need a cold, refreshing can of Jomer Cola™ Zero to wash down the stupid, ’cause nothing goes better with stupid than stupid.

  15. HolisticGuy said,

    I’m one who trusts virtually nothing that BIG Government and Big Business does.
    Having researched the history of vaccines, I’ll pass my vaccine shot onto someone else who blindly worships and loves big business and big goverment…Enjoy!!! :)

  16. Neuroskeptic said,

    Neither do I, which I why I’m so skeptical of Big CAM. It’s an industry as big as Big Pharma, and for some reason, it has a lot more online supports. Shills, maybe? How much you getting paid?

  17. jdc325 said,

    Neuroskeptic – I’m not sure holistic guy needs to shill for Big CAM. His website looks pretty straightforwardly commercial to me. Lots of ads, a ‘donate’ button…

  18. Diana said,

    it’s easy to criticize when you don’t read the interview, and take words out of context.

    His academic qualifications include graduation in veterinary medicine and M.Sc. and Ph.D. in Microbiology. He is the recipient of numerous academic awards, including a Fellowship of the World Health Organization. He also worked for Health Canada (their equivalent of the FDA) for many years.

    also overlooked.

    here are some of the quotes by Dr. Chopra in full:

    “How come they never talked about this influenza in India? We never heard of it. I never heard of it. Remember, this swine flu at that time was originally called Spanish flu, and the Spanish called it French flu because the two countries were on the opposite sides of the war. And then eventually they settled on swine flu. Again, nobody knew if that was really swine flu because we didn’t know how to isolate a virus at that time,” Dr. Chopra says.

    “There were no tissue cultures and the viruses didn’t grow outside living cells. We know a lot of people died; exactly what they died of, it could be swine flu, the virus, or pneumonia. We didn’t have any antibiotics at that time. So complications may have killed them. It’s even possible as some people say it was: with influenza you get fairly high fever, with some flu you get higher fever.

    The aspirin at the time was a thing to reduce your body temperature. People say too much aspirin — there were no controls, we didn’t know how aspirin really worked and what damage it did. Some people may have died from internal bleeding, by taking too much aspirin and trying to bring the temperature down,” he continues.

    everyone is entitled to an opinion, but when you misrepresent what someone has said, or accomplished, your point becomes moot.

    I’m with HolisticGuy in that I’ve done my own research, and have formed my own educated opinion on the matter. You all should do the same.

  19. draust said,

    Diana

    I am sorry, but if you lack the background and training, you do not have the “context” to interpret detailed scientific or medical research findings, or even presentations of them by folk like Dr Chopra. Thus an opinion you form on the basis of reading their work, or random internet sites, is NOT an “educated” opinion. It is actually a wholly miseducated one, because you lack the context to tell whether what you are reading is real science, or raving nonsense.

    Much of what Chopra says is utter scientific hogwash. One example:

    Chopra: Birds have lived on the Earth for 65 million years, so have their viruses including the bird flu. By now if bird flu was killing poultry and birds then all those birds and poultry should have died – by now there should be no birds on the earth. If there are, they should be immune. How is it that the bird flu virus remains in the birds?

    A virus that always kills its host would soon disappear, so in evolutionary terms it would be a dead end. So what Chopra says is daft. The virus is well evolved precisely because it lives and multiplies in, but does NOT kill (all) it’s avian hosts. It infects the bird, making the host bird’s cells produce more virus, in the meantime making the bird.ill (this is in a sense a side-effect – the point is viral infection and replication, not killing the host). The virus is spread to other birds. That is what the virus evolves to do. Meanwhile, some, but not all, of the hosts die. And the virus mutates, so that the birds (or you) are not “totally immune” after having the disease once. So the next time you see it, a few years later perhaps, you are only partially immune. It is actually a kind of co-existence.

    The same thing exactly is true of humans and influenza. The virus “lives” with us. Chopra’s statement is like saying humans should have long since been wiped out by ‘flu, if ‘flu was able to kill, because there has always been ‘flu, and that the fact we are still here proves ‘flu is never deadly. Again, this is evident claptrap. While ‘flu may often kill by causing secondary pneumonia, it can kill on its own. If Chopra says otherwise he is away with the fairies.

    There is another point leading on from this. Since what Chopra says is such utter tripe, you have to wonder what he learned from his DVM MSc PhD. And to a scientist, that someone could state as fact something so scientifically nonsensical tells you right off the bat that anything else. he says is likely to be highly untrustworthy. That is what I mean by the “context” to interpret correctly what you are being told.

  20. GWC352 said,

    I guess the scary thing is how this ‘scientist’ was in charge of anything whatsoever to do with the veterinary regulatory agency of a country of Canada’s stature. Being in the Public Service Commission of the Canadian government provides a great deal of ‘protection’ from management in any attempts to remove this guy , as the evidence has shown. If he were to meet with resistance in advancing himself up the ladder at a government agency , what methods might exist to overcome that resistance? If you weren’t getting what you wanted from your bosses and you worked in the public eye, how would you gain an advantage over them?

  21. Diana said,

    Dr Aust

    I never said I agreed with everything Dr. Chopra had to say, my point was only that if you are going to criticize, then you must use the entire quote. The same with credentials.

    I also never said what my opinion on the matter was, so how do you know if it is educated or not? My personal beliefs are not formed solely through internet articles and interviews. I consider those types of things to be of entertainment value, rather than of an educational one.

    That being said, as far as my opinion on vaccines are concerned as with any medical intervention, it’s risk vs. benefit. I have never gotten a flu vaccine of any kind, I’m not in a high risk category. But if I were to be mauled by a rabid animal tomorrow, you bet your sweet ass I’d accept a rabies vaccination.

    Good lord man, I’m not ‘away with the fairies,’ as you put it.

  22. draust said,

    Fair enough, Diana. I repeat, though, that it is transparently clear to any scientifically knowledgeable person reading his ramblings that Chopra is away with the fairies.

    Re. credentials they are “necessary but not sufficient”, as the saying is. Andrew Wakefield of MMR infamy has a medical degree and passed the exams for Membership of the Royal Colleges of Surgery and of Pathology, But that still didn’t make him a good doctor, or a even a passable scientist. Or stop him being, to quote the General Medical Council “dishonest”.

    “Risk vs. benefit” is right for vaccinations. It is just that, for all the common childhood vaccinations in modern use, the equation is overwhelmingly in favour of benefit. That is why the NHS in the UK has them on the schedule.

    As to ‘flu vaccine, the policy in the UK is precisely to offer it to those in the high-risk categories.

  23. Cybertiger said,

    ““Risk vs. benefit” is right for vaccinations. It is just that, for all the common childhood vaccinations in modern use, the equation is overwhelmingly in favour of benefit. That is why the NHS in the UK has them on the schedule. ”

    Typical cobblers, typical Droopy tosh.

    “Andrew Wakefield of MMR infamy has a medical degree and passed the exams for Membership of the Royal Colleges of Surgery and of Pathology, But that still didn’t make him a good doctor, or a even a passable scientist. Or stop him being, to quote the General Medical Council “dishonest”.”

    You’re pompous prat, Droopy Draust, the worst of the worst.

  24. jdc325 said,

    “I never said I agreed with everything Dr. Chopra had to say, my point was only that if you are going to criticize, then you must use the entire quote.”
    If I had quoted the entire transcript this blog post would have been so long as to be unreadable. I quoted excerpts from the transcript and linked back to the original website that carried the full interview and transcript so that people could check for themselves the veracity of my quotes, whether they fairly represented Chopra’s views, and the context in which his comments were made.

    “it’s easy to criticize when you don’t read the interview, and take words out of context.”
    I read the whole interview, and it was still easy to criticise. Please point to where I have taken Chopra’s views out of context.

    “everyone is entitled to an opinion, but when you misrepresent what someone has said, or accomplished, your point becomes moot.”
    Where have I misrepresented Chopra’s views?

  25. Diana said,

    jdc325:

    I didn’t say you needed to quote the entire transcript. That’s obviously not possible in a format such as this. What I mean by the entire quote is you take a portion of what he said on the topic, and leave out another portion of it. It’s not a complete thought. Dr Chopra’s English grammar leaves quite a bit to be desired…I think we can all agree on that. But you have to look at all of it to understand what he’s trying to say.

    Let’s take the Bird-flu quote:

    DC: “Absolutely, that’s why I call it a hoax. I can forgive President Bush. He’s a politician,
    but the people who are advising presidents, prime ministers, governments, and the
    WHO are talking about the same without even batting an eyelash. Bird flu is coming
    from wild birds, which is what they were saying. Birds have lived on the earth for 65
    million years, and so have their viruses including the bird flu. If bird flu was killing poultry
    or birds, then all those birds and poultry should have died by now. There should be no
    birds on Earth. If there are, they should be immune. How is it that the bird flu virus
    remains in the birds? Obviously, viruses remain; there is an ecosystem. There are
    viruses, bacteria, and other species, and this is the cycle of life. This is how it works.
    Once in a while a disease comes; some people and animals get sick, some die, and
    then the whole system keeps on going again. These are the cycles of outbreaks and so on. ”

    a whole different viewpoint from the one you portrayed. I believe what he’s referring to here is the information being spread by the Government and media about the ‘Bird Flu’ was inaccurate… because as you can see above, he goes on to say:

    ‘Obviously, viruses remain; there is an ecosystem. There are
    viruses, bacteria, and other species, and this is the cycle of life. This is how it works.
    Once in a while a disease comes; some people and animals get sick, some die, and
    then the whole system keeps on going again. These are the cycles of outbreaks and so on. ”

    meaning in essence that he believed that the portion that you quoted was ridiculous and untrue.

    That is what I meant. When you leave out the first and last portion of the statement, it is an entirely different viewpoint altogether. I mean I think the guy is definitely kind of nutty, but it looks bad when you pick and choose what suits your viewpoint.

    I’m curious as to what you thought about the food portion of the interview?

  26. Science-Based Medicine » More Breast Cancer Awareness Month pseudoscience from (who else?) Joe Mercola said,

    [...] safety. Since then, he appears to have drifted further and further into dubious medicine, including anti-vaccine views (Chopra has even said that “no flu vaccine has ever worked”) and crankery about [...]

  27. Science-Based Medicine » The Greater Good: Pure, unadulterated anti-vaccine propaganda masquerading as a “balanced” documentary said,

    [...] (who is an all purpose medical crank and, like many all purpose medical cranks, anti-vaccine), Dr. Shiv Chopra (who is anti-vaccine to the core), Dr. Richard Deth (who was an expert witness for the plaintiffs [...]

  28. Alexander said,

    U did fail my friend

  29. Erwin Alber said,

    As far as i am concerned, vaccination is a 200-year–old fraud, medical abuse of children and a crime against humankind.

    As more and more people are waking up to the harm being inflicted on their babies and children in the name of public health, this is going to haunt the people involved in this organised criminal enterprise and bite them in the ass real bad.

    I can’t wait for the day when children are allowed to grow up in a vaccine-free world and the scum of the earth who run this racket will be forced to earn a living by honest means like the rest of us who at least try to contribute something meaningful to society.

  30. ChrisP said,

    Erwin, just because you have an opinion about something does not make it correct. What makes things correct is evidence.

    If vaccination were a fraud, it would provide no protection against disease. The evidence very clearly is that vaccination does protect people against disease. The list where vaccination has successfully protected people against disease is long: smallpox, polio, diphtheria, pertussis, measles, hepatitis B, yellow fever, meningococcus and others. Vaccination even works in animals. The biochemical steps that result in successful vaccination are well understood and well described.

    The current measles epidemic in Wales is a result of a period of lower than optimum vaccination from 1998. Those affected are in the 10-18 age group that was not vaccinated in the early part of this century because of scares raised by anti-vaccination liars.

    As vaccines protect children from diseases that could disable or even kill them, vaccination could hardly be described as child abuse. Failing to vaccinate and leaving children vulnerable to diseases that they otherwise would not get is a better description of child abuse.

    So far Erwin, you have contributed of value to society with your anti-vaccine lying. In fact you have taken from society by trying to influence people to make their children vulnerable to disease. If someone were to be correctly described as scum, it might be you.

    I trust this response is of some assistance to your thinking about vaccination.

  31. dingo199 said,

    Irony of it is that Edwin may well owe his existence to the benefits of vaccination.
    And I for one would dearly like to know how what he does “contributes something meaningful to society” (unless it is to serve as a shining example of how despicable it is possible to get, and to serve as a benchmark for indecency and revulsion)

  32. LP said,

    Thank you for documenting this, its being used on a campaign. Can the author please email me.

  33. mythbuster said,

    “Swine flu exists. Flu vaccines are protective against influenza. The benefits of vaccination against seasonal flu and swine flu probably outweigh the risks of vaccination. ” Fantasy posting

    What is this crap! Cochraine has exposed this flu scam as nonsense. Probably isn’t good enough, how can you claim that medicine is scientific using terms like ‘probably’! This is anecdotal medical science at its worst.

    There is no evidence to tell us if it is ‘probably’ because proper stats on who is or isn’t vaccinated for flu and actually gets flu are not kept! Why not?

    If this was homeopathy you would be calling foul!

    “Irony of it is that Edwin may well owe his existence to the benefits of vaccination.” Dung!

    Again, may well, well actually because the data is conveniently not kept you might as well buy a chocolate teapot!

    The medical anecdotes of ‘benefit’ and worse are LOL.

    when are you going to wake up and smell the formaldehyde!

  34. mythbuster said,

    “Erwin, just because you have an opinion about something does not make it correct. What makes things correct is evidence.” according to your evidence this may probably not might be untrue!

  35. Marie-Louise Rennicks said,

    I have 4 children and at first I believed in vaccinations until one almost died of an injection. That’s when we started to research what vaccinations were all about and boy did we ever get a rude awaking. We stopped all vaccinations for all of our children at once. Through all of there schooling years they were the only ones who never got sick, half of the class could be down and out, but our kids immune system was working to their full potential.
    Also, a few years ago many nursing homes made it mandatory to vaccinate their patients and guess what, every year they had to close their facilities to their loved ones, because of so many flu outbreaks.
    Guys wake up and start doing some research, before, blindly taking and doing everything what the government and big companies tell you what to do..

  36. mythbuster said,

    Hi marie, these guys are not awake unfortunately. Do you know what it says on the inside leaflet on the latest flu jab flulaval?

    “There have been no adequate trials demonstrating a decrease in influenza disease after vaccination with Flulaval”

    That’s how they get round it, I saw recently a comment on this saying we should market a cream to allow you to walk on water and then put on the inside ‘never known to work’.

    Can’t wait for Chris to come down off the Tramadol and think about this!

  37. Chris said,

    Ms. Rennicks: “Guys wake up and start doing some research, before, blindly taking and doing everything what the government and big companies tell you what to do.”

    Certainly. Here is some: Vaccine Safety: Examine the Evidence. If you disagree, just provide the PubMed indexed study by a reputable qualified researcher that any pediatric vaccine on the pediatric schedule in either the UK or USA is more dangerous than the disease.

    References should not from someone who typically lives under a bridge, and does not realize that more than one person can have the same first name.

  38. mythbuster said,

    Check what the Cochraine Collaboration has to say about Pubmed Chris, egg and face spring to mind.

  39. mythbuster said,

    Perhaps you could stop quoting septic mantras and start actually getting up to speed on how your ‘reference’ masters are full of it.

  40. mythbuster said,

    Quoting Pubmed is like quoting the bible on atheistism! They are all jerks. If on the other hand, like I said, you read the leaflet inside the vaccine box Flulaval it tells you there is no robust research that shows it works!

    Get past Peter John and Wendy Chris, you can do it.

  41. Chris Preston said,

    This is just more of the normal stuff from the troll, claims without evidence. Trying to claim that only it’s sort of evidence will do. Why on earth would would you look in the patient information leaflet for research? It is the patient information leaflet. For research you need the scientific literature and Pubmed is a good search engine for the scientific medical literature.

  42. Chris said,

    Yup, the same boring stuff. The troll does not understand the video has nothing to do with vaccines. Nor does he understand that PubMed is merely an index to medical literature from around the planet.

  43. mythbuster said,

    NICE smokescreen Chris, it really is like talking to Catholics. Even when it is shown that the bible is wrong they still ramble on in prose.

    Chris is like someone who has been told politely that his breath smells and continues to huff on people.

  44. mythbuster said,

    Kind of interesting, the source of Chris’ evidence is exposed as mythical medical woo and he still keeps quoting it. that is a definition of madness surely.

    Vaccines depend on medical peer reviewed psalms to prove efficacy rather than proper field trials with real placebo.Unfortunately Cochraine has shown that time and time again vaccination has more to do with papal blessing than therapeutics ie shown to be bullshit. What pathway can you not see here Chris, did you only watch Sesame Street during your formative years?

    Take your knob out of your ear and think.

    Hugga hugga

  45. jdc325 said,

    Vaccines depend on medical peer reviewed psalms to prove efficacy rather than proper field trials with real placebo.

    There’s about 6,000 vaccine RCTs indexed on PubMed. Some use no treatment, some use saline placebo, some use other placebos, including an adjuvanted ‘vaccine’ with no active ingredient. What do you think is a “real placebo”?

    Unfortunately Cochraine has shown that time and time again vaccination has more to do with papal blessing than therapeutics ie shown to be bullshit.

    Really? How many of these reviews show that vaccination is bullshit?

  46. mythbuster said,

    “Really? How many of these reviews show that vaccination is bullshit?” Chris the soothsayer

    How about the 96 season review of flu vaccine that found no evidence to support the 10 top claims for flu vaccine efficacy. The top claim in the UK by the NHS was that it was supposed to half winter deaths. When Cochraine looked at the stats what they found was that only 10% of winter deaths are caused by ‘flu like’ illnesses. That isn’t even lab confirmed. Cochraine concluded that to half winter deaths the flu vaccine would have to have an impact on road traffic accidents.

    Cochraine’s conclusion on the top 10 claims for flu vaccine efficacy? = implausible at best!

    Inside a current flu vaccine Flulaval, on the insert it says “there are no robust studies showing that Flulaval reduces influenza diseases”

    40 years of study by the Common cold unit was, in lab conditions, only able to claim to ‘infect’ 3/32 people with flu virus sprayed up volunteer’s noses!

    I could find piles of crap in the bible supporting the second coming Chris but sometime one has to take ones head out of the Gwana and smell the air.

    I find your ‘logic’ and allegiance to your lord quite amusing, your ‘cloak of science’ even more LOL. Next you will be quoting our lord Singh on fishbowls or even bishop Hennes on the psams of Zeno.

    Bring it on Chris, bring it on………………….

  47. mythbuster said,

    “Every year many people suffer and die from seasonal influenza, particularly the elderly, children younger than age 2 and people with other medical conditions or weakened immune”. Modern medical myths by our lord Chris Piston.

    Cochraine also found the flu vaccine did not work for old people apparently that is because there immune systems are not strong enough to ‘react’ to the vaccine! The woo excuses get deeper, it’s like reading some early religious text…………this year it was the ‘wrong strain’, last year it was…….

    How much of a vaccine believer must you be to push your head that far up the pipe and still smell roses Chris?

    Come on, tell us the secret of being able to still breath in sewage, you must tell us, give us a sign….

  48. mythbuster said,

    Oh and apparently it is useless for children too!

    Who on earth sold you that car Chris?

  49. mythbuster said,

    “Really? How many of these reviews show that vaccination is bullshit?”J2-007

    Do you read any of the things you cut and paste juice boy?

    Here’s on liners from the first page:

    Hep B “none of these trials had high methodological quality

    Vaccines for preventing flu in people with cystic fibrosis:
    Vaccination does result in an immune system response to the types of influenza used in the vaccine. However, this response may not result in protection against influenza infection or lung damage. There were a high number of adverse events, but none were serious or persistent. There is no evidence to show if regular influenza vaccine benefits people with cystic fibrosis.

    Do you J20, like priest Chris, just post any old link to the bible and pray or are you just a stupid dolt?

    None of the papers in this link http://summaries.cochrane.org/search/site/vaccine?f%5B0%5D=im_field_stage%3A3 seem to show anything but bullshit about vaccine efficacy!

    Here is a link to the definition, maybe your post might improve if you at least understand that bullshit doesn’t mean “really useful or very good”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit

  50. jdc325 said,

    You seem confused mythbuster. Researchers finding that trials of hep B vaccine in a specific group (people with renal failure) are of low or medium quality does not demonstrate that vaccination is bullshit. Table 3 shows why trials were marked down: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD003775.pub2/tables#CD003775-tbl-0006 e.g. Desmyter failed to get the top grade due to the lack of a clear description of generation of allocation sequence.

    The second review was of research into flu vaccine for people with cystic fibrosis. The authors failed to find studies that included the outcome measures they were interested in, in the specific group they were studying. Again, this does not demonstrate that vaccination is bullshit.

  51. Chris said,

    Awww, that is cute. JDC, is the “mythbuster” troll cherry picking?

    By the way, thank you for having the patience to deal with him.

  52. j20buster said,

    The lord hath said cast out those who diss the vaxxy woo. pubmed psalm blah. If the first page is this crap on a list of 6000 then what is the point of reading more?

    You remind me of Nelson at Trafalgar “I see no ships”

    You are a parody in your own lunchtime.

    Weasel words J20 weasel words……………

  53. mythbuster said,

    And so the septic, with his bible used weasel tools to weave his thread.
    “Thou ist a cherry picker” When data appeareth that contradicts the word of Pubmed thou shalt cry “noise in the data” and sneer and scorn.

  54. jdc325 said,

    The lord hath said cast out those who diss the vaxxy woo. pubmed psalm blah. If the first page is this crap on a list of 6000 then what is the point of reading more?

    You remind me of Nelson at Trafalgar “I see no ships”

    You are a parody in your own lunchtime.

    Weasel words J20 weasel words……………

    Oh dear. Someone seems to have replaced your carefully argued post that demonstrates that the Cochrane Collaboration have shown time and again that vaccination is bullshit with some wibble equating my comments with religion.

    Try password-protecting your laptop. HTH.

  55. mythbuster said,

    Only true vaccine believers see the ‘truth’

  56. mythbuster said,

    I see the new role out for meningitis B vaccine is now in the pipeline. Apparently 10% of sufferers either die or have horrible outcomes. Campaigners lobbying for the new vaccine tell us that it ‘protects’ 80%. That means if no protection gives us a 90% survival rate then the vaccine can’t fail to show a result!

    More weasel words from the wonderful myths of ‘vaccines protect’.

  57. Chris Preston said,

    I see the troll is innumerate as well as illiterate.

    If 100% of people catch the disease and you protect 80% of them, that leaves 20% left to catch the disease. If 10% of those who catch the disease die or have terrible outcomes, than only 2% of the total population would be in this category. So 8% of people who would otherwise die or have terrible outcomes now won’t.

    In fact the real situation is better than that, because high levels of vaccination reduce the amount of pathogen circulating in the community making it harder to catch the disease. So the real figure for those who would die or have a terrible outcome is more likely to be a fraction of 1%.

  58. mythbuster said,

    “In fact the real situation is better than that, because high levels of vaccination reduce the amount of pathogen circulating in the community making it harder to catch the disease.” Vaccine myths a miriad

    Chris, did you go to the Ninky Bobble school of reasoning or are you just ‘challenged’.

    You have to stop spreading fairy stories.

    “If 100% of people catch the disease and you protect 80% of them” Vaccine bullshit mythology number binky

    Chris, there is no evidence that vaccines ‘protect’ anything but shareholder’s investments. last years whooping cough vaccine protection, according to the CDC and NIH, failed in the highest uptake for decades we got the highest outbreaks. Those who didn’t vaccinate were, according to the CDC not to blame – wait for it – it was primary vaccine failure.

    This year mumps is following the same trail of disaster in the US in almost 100% vaccinated cohorts. flu vaccination is the same, we even have rigorous data to show flu vaccine is bullshit and they still trot it out.

    A few years ago the PCV vaccine for kids, ‘protecting shareholders investments’ against strains of pneumonia, septicaemia, and meningitis was introduced to the UK. After many requests for safety data from the manufacturer in the US, the following became clear.

    Official stat returns to the FDA show that on average 23 kids die from these diseases so this was to be the target to improve upon. This is a tragedy whatever you believe. Guess how many kids officially died from the vaccine in the first year Chris——– 117!

    The above hype about the new meningitis B vaccine is just that, more promises of woo from a flawed, unaccountable and devious theology that should have died out with the chief honcho Jenner. He himself admitted at the end of his pulp fiction style poisoning career that there was more disease after his ‘inoculations’ than there was before.

    Only vaccine believers keep this barbarous mythology alive and your sub church of papal proportions is right down there with him.

  59. mythbuster said,

    Oh the other strategy when a vaccine programme fails is to rename the disease. Check out Polio plus campaign to rid Polio by 20000! in India, all those vaccinated that go on to develop Polio are reclassified as ‘Non polio flaccid paralysis’. Trouble is there are now 47,500 with NPFP..

    For those of you among the church of the science blind…….

    How many cases of Polio were there in India before Bill ‘Jenner’ Gates was let loose? 47,500.

    AMEN

  60. Chris Preston said,

    I can’t believe it. The troll has equated non-polio acute flaccid paralysis with polio. The answer should be obvious in the name.

    But what can you expect from someone who thinks 100% – 80% = 90%?

  61. mythbuster said,

    Non polio acute flaccid paralysis is clinically indistinguishable from wild Polio Chris – if you have had the Polio vaccine that’s the name they give it so they can cook the stats instead of admit ‘primary vaccine failure’.

    For entry level idiot vaccine believers like you that means when the vaccine causes the same disease it was designed to prevent, to avoid acute flaccid embarrassment, they rename it so very simple people don’t spot the weasel fudge.

    Like Windscale nuclear power station was renamed Sellafield after a nuclear accident, same site, same power station but different name.

    They were going to rename radiation ‘freaky moon beams’ so people thought it was safer.

    I know you have been brainwashed into vaccine belief so this should make the vaccine weaseling a bit more easy to see, try a bit harder Chris and put your xbox away for a change.

  62. mythbuster said,

    If 90% of people who get meningitis B recover with no problems, what is the difference between people who die and those who don’t.

    Oh, the very clever medical scientists who do all that research for some reason haven’t studied that. Perhaps they will find out that the kids who have had the total vaccine assault schedule are the one who die.

    That would be awkward.

    Oh what did the current editor of the BMJ say to defend their recent slam of the danger of statins today on the BBC? RCT peer reviewed studies are notoriously unreliable with regard to reporting adverse events!

    QED – medical peer review is not evidence it is PR, unfortunately your one O Level in mixed media isn’t really going to equip you to handle that belief system collapse is it dear?

    You have to stop believing in academic papers Chris, or maybe you’ve been reading toilet roll all this time.

    OMMMMMMM

  63. Chris Preston said,

    Of course you can distinguish non-polio acute flaccid paralysis from polio. It is entirely possible to determine whether the polio organism has caused the paralysis. It is a standard test through identification of the virus in stools. Only vaccine deniers make up this crap about polio having been re-defined to make it go away.

    It is only reality deniers, like yourself, who make up lies that only people who have been vaccinated die from meningitis B.

  64. mythbuster said,

    I sense a twitch of defensive bile in your post, official reports from India are telling us that the Polio plus campaign is a fudge Chris but they are lumbered with contracts. They don’t test people with NPFP, the point is the patient is fucked with a clinically copy cat disease indistinguishable from Polio flaccid paralysis. The only difference is that they have had the Polio vaccine.

    Another ‘odd’ co incidence is there use to be 47,500 cases of Polio in India a year before the Polio plus campaign. Now there is ‘no Polio’ but 47,500 cases of NPFP, a previously non statistical event! The latter condition is twice as deadly as wild polio too.

    Have you not progressed beyond the college of Ninky noo with respect for you ability to spot this fudge Chris?

    With ‘flu pandemic’ virtually no one is tested, instead in the last one we relied on school leavers answering phone calls to clinical questions.
    1. are you hot
    2. do you feel crap

    3 it’s swine flu.

    Shits like you accepted this crap as evidence that medical science was doing all it could to save the planet! When the boot is rammed up your arse with vaccine sucking it is suddenly not evidence.

    Hypercrit

  65. jdc325 said,

    Another ‘odd’ co incidence is there use to be 47,500 cases of Polio in India a year before the Polio plus campaign. Now there is ‘no Polio’ but 47,500 cases of NPFP, a previously non statistical event!

    Yes, that is odd. In fact, it’s so odd I wonder if it’s true that cases of polio went from 47,500 to 0 at the same time that cases of NPFP went from 0 to 47,500. Where are you getting your numbers from? They’re suspiciously convenient for the argument you are making.

    By the way, if NPFP=polio, how come of 46,653 AFP samples, “12,513 NPEVs were isolated from the collected stool samples”? http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1440-1754.2009.01529.x/abstract

    Oh, and you might find this interesting: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23602838

    Diarrheal stool specimens from 2161 children aged 0-2 years and 169 children between 2 and 9 years, and 1800 normal stool samples from age-matched healthy children between 0 and 9 years were examined during 2008-2012 for enterovirus (oral polio vaccine strains (OPVs) and NPEVs). [...] After subtraction of OPV-positive diarrheal cases (1.81%), while NPEVs are associated with about 17% of acute diarrhea, about 6% of healthy children showed asymptomatic NPEV excretion.

    Oh, and did you know that “In 2004, a number of steps were initiated to strengthen surveillance in order to accurately and more rapidly detect all polio cases in the country, it said. Those measures included expanding the definition of AFP; increasing the number of AFP reporting sites; increasing the number of active surveillance visits; and more training for health professionals on what constituted an AFP case.”? http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/polio-free-does-not-mean-paralysis-free/article4266043.ece Amazing. They expanded the definition of AFP and, at the same time, looked for it more actively than previously, and identified more cases of AFP. What a surprise!

  66. mythbuster said,

    God you believe in total shit j20, that is some crazy belief system you got there.

    Nor am I reassured by discussions at two recent meetings co-hosted by the European Federation of Pharmaceutical Industry Associations (EFPIA). Drug company AbbVie is suing the European Medicines Agency to stop summary reports of its clinical trials becoming publicly available. AbbVie’s lawyer made clear that the company considers even the data on adverse events to be commercially confidential. Despite industry’s claims to be in favour of greater transparency, EFPIA and its American counterpart PhRMA are supporting Abbvie. The BMJ and BMA have joined forces to intervene on behalf of the EMA. Fiona Godlee editor of the BMJ

    This was about the current statins scam, it is crazy that all you can do is cite the Koran of medicine, sit back and sneer.

    Remember all that shit about Tamiflu and the swine flu scamdemic, when Roche was asked to provide post bullshit data audits on Tamiflu efficacy by the BMJ after months of stalling their response was………….

    We lost it.

    Your position consistently is anti science, anecdote and banal, you have no scientific inquiry. Are you sure you are not a homeopath?

    Maybe you are one of those grade A doctors, trained to quote the NICE guidelines when it suits you sir

  67. jdc325 said,

    @mythbuster,

    You brought up polio. Why do you want to change the subject? Is it because you’ve realised you can’t defend your comments on that topic?

  68. Chris Preston said,

    The idiot troll wrote:

    “Another ‘odd’ co incidence is there use to be 47,500 cases of Polio in India a year before the Polio plus campaign. Now there is ‘no Polio’ but 47,500 cases of NPFP, a previously non statistical event! The latter condition is twice as deadly as wild polio too.”

    This is about as inane and stupid as it gets. AFP is a key symptom of polio. So if you are going to conduct a campaign to eradicate polio, you need to be able to identify people who might have it. So what you do is create a recording system for those that might have AFP and then test them to see if they have polio or not. What this inevitably does is increase the recorded number of people with Non-polio AFP, as AFP can be caused by several factors.

    There actually used to be more than 200,000 cases of polio each year in India http://www.unicef.org/india/health_3729.htm so if NPAFP is just polio under another name, there should be more than 200,000 cases annually now.

    And the idiot troll suggests that others are anti-science. It is anti-reason.

  69. Mythbuster said,

    Hey it’s the Chris and J20 show, are you sure you don’t write for one of those American evangelical stations?

    Your mastery of the weasel word is awesome, your ability to ignore basic science is surpassed only by the few Catholics I have been unlucky enough to meet.

    Scientific inquiry – you wish

    Medical peer reviewed research as a baseline for ‘evidence production’ is and has been in disrepute for years. It’s one of the highest levels of science bull known to man.

    I know it’s all you have, but come on, ditch the Beano and start looking around, you know it makes sense

  70. Chris Preston said,

    So idiot troll, what was that you wrote about polio again?

  71. mythbuster said,

    No Chris Polio is not one of those little white mints with a hole in it.

    What on earth do you do for a living? Benefits?

    http://vactruth.com/2013/11/26/vaccine-associated-polio/

    Hail Mary, or whatever it is you do

  72. mythbuster said,

    “Swine flu exists. Flu vaccines are protective against influenza. The benefits of vaccination against seasonal flu and swine flu probably outweigh the risks of vaccination.” Quotes from the Chris and J20 show!

    Just reminded myself of the opening gambit on this thread, LOL

    You need to have the Muppets theme tune played on a church organ with a catholic bishop administering to set this psalm to its real context.

    And you get off on this kind of thing?

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