Histadelia: A Doctor Writes
The doctor in question is Jeremy Kaslow (MD, FACP, FACAAI). Dr Kaslow makes some, er, interesting claims on his website about a condition named ‘histadelia’. Similar claims have been made by nutritionist Patrick Holford among others.
Histadelia is not a condition that is much referred to in the medical literature (Pubmed: “Your search for histadelia retrieved no results”). I can’t find any evidence that histadelia (high histamine) is recognised as a medical condition. I can find diagnostic tests for histadelia, and supplements claimed to remedy the condition, for sale. This PDF includes a price for histamine testing: link. Apparently, you can buy supplements* from Dr Kaslow (“contact Mary or Vanessa in our Supplement Dispensary…”), although it’s not entirely clear whether Dr Kaslow actually sells supplements specifically for histadelia.
When I wrote about Patrick Holford and Histadelia, I pointed out that those promoting the idea that high histamine was linked to depression and OCD had “their own un-evidenced test – for an un-evidenced condition that requires un-evidenced treatment”. In the comments below this post, people posted their personal anecdotes telling me how they were helped by treatment for their histadelia.
When I pointed to the lack of evidence for the claims being made regarding histadelia, I was encouraged to “[look] at William Walsh’s research at the Pfeiffer Research Institute. He has done a lot of research in this area”. This research was not available on the internet and I was unable to find contact details for the PRI. I contacted the Pfeiffer Treatment Centre to ask if they could provide me with the research into histadelia. I haven’t heard back from them yet (I wrote to them in 2009).
So. The PTC couldn’t (or wouldn’t) provide me with the research relating to histadelia. Despite Patrick Holford’s famous referenciness, the section of his book (Optimum Nutrition for the Mind) that deals with histadelia has no references. That’s right, not one single reference to back up the claims of these advocates of Orthomolecular Medicine. Dr Kaslow doesn’t have any references on his page about histadelia either. It’s almost as if there is no evidence…
Here are some of the things Dr Kaslow has written on histadelia:
Many patients with obsessive-compulsive tendencies, “oppositional-defiant disorder,” or seasonal depression are under-methylated, which is associated with low serotonin levels. Often with inhalant allergies, frequent headaches, perfectionism, competitiveness and other distinctive symptoms and traits. Tend to be very low in calcium, magnesium, methionine, and vitamin B-6 with excessive levels of folic acid.
Biochemical treatment revolves around antifolates, especially calcium and methionine. Certain forms of buffered vitamin C can help by providing calcium and ascorbic acid. Three to six months of nutrient therapy are usually needed to correct this chemical imbalance. As in most biochemical therapies, the symptoms usually return if treatment is stopped.
Three to six months of “nutrient therapy” to treat something that, as far as I can tell, hasn’t been identified as a medical condition?
Update, 19th August
I contacted Dr Kaslow to ask for references to the research that supports the statements on his website. His reply is quoted, in full, below:
Contact the Pfeiffer Institute.
I’ve decided to write back to see if he will clarify a few points for me.
I’ve also contacted the Pfeiffer Treatment Center at the Health Research Institute (which appears to be the proper name for what is sometimes known as the Pfeiffer Institute). This is the organisation I contacted in 2009 and never received a reply from. Here’s the auto-reply I got:
We regret to inform you that the Pfeiffer Treatment Center will no longer be providing patient care. While this news is disappointing, we are pleased to inform you that the HRI Pharmacy remains open and will continue to serve your compounding prescription needs.
I shan’t hold my breath.
More
*Just a note here to point out that this range includes supplements “based on the work of Linus Pauling in addressing elevated lipoprotein (a) and homocysteine levels”. I believe there is some controversy as to whether homocysteine is actually a risk factor or a false surrogate end point. Potter et al concluded that their findings supported the hypothesis that homocysteine “is a marker for renal impairment rather than an independent cardiovascular risk factor”. See also this paper (“short-term treatment with B-vitamins is associated with increased FMD, long-term homocysteine-lowering did not significantly improve FMD or CIMT in people with a history of stroke”) and Effect of Homocysteine Lowering on Mortality and Vascular Disease in Advanced Chronic Kidney Disease and End-stage Renal Disease: supplements did lower homocysteine levels, but there was no significant effect on mortality, no significant effects were demonstrated for secondary outcomes or adverse events, and “the composite of MI, stroke, and amputations plus mortality (P = .85), time to dialysis (P = .38), and time to thrombosis in hemodialysis patients (P = .97) did not differ between the vitamin and placebo groups”. [Link] More recent papers here (homocysteine and inflammatory biomarkers appear to enhance the degree of affected arteries and so the severity of coronary artery disease), here (results indicated that tHcy and Lp(a) levels were possibly atherogenic risk factors independent of conventional risk factors), and here (vitamin B treatment showed no beneficial effect on the angiographic progression of coronary artery disease, and the post hoc analyses suggested that folic acid/vitamin B(12) treatment might promote more rapid progression).
Stuff And Nonsense 
jdc325 said,
August 19, 2011 at 4:37 pm
I’ve contacted Dr Kaslow.
Here is a quote from the email I sent:
I’ll update my blogpost on Dr Kaslow if I receive a response.
afg said,
August 21, 2011 at 4:36 pm
I have accidently found out about histadelia 1 year ago. The main reason i started to search about it was because my second toe is longer then first one which results in ankle, knee and hip problems. As is found out, it may indicate histadelia. After i read it, 95% of all symptoms were correct. Moreover i found out about pyroluria which is also hypothesized by Carl Pfeiffer. I started taking b6 (50mg), zinc (15mg) and vitamin c (500mg) immediately. And i saw improvement just 2 days after i started it (improvement for pyroluria). I started taking l-methionine (1g) and i started seeing improvement after a week or so. It was really big improvement. Not only i felt psychologically great but also physically. Anemia was gone. Fatigue and exercise intolerance was gone. After 3 months i was feeling like a new man. No more anxiety, depression. Ocd tendencies are almost completely gone but still i sometimes catch myself cleaning the clothes or biting nails but i have no problem stopping it. I realised that all my family from father’s side have histadelia so it is probably genetic. It seems illogical that medical society doesn’t believe this disease exists however they agree that histamine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histamine)
H3 receptor, found on central nervous system and to a lesser extent peripheral nervous system tissue, decrease neurotransmitter release: histamine, acetylcholine, norepinephrine, serotonin.
So too much histamine would result in decreased amount of these neurotransmitters. And it is believed that anxiety and depression and other mental illness are caused by decreased amount of seratonin and other neurotransmitters.
As about physiological symptoms, allergic rhinitis is almost gone ( i still got mild form), salivation and tear production is probably returned to normal ( first time in my life i felt what dry mouth is). Pain tolerance is increase and heat intolerance is decreased though i don’t feel so cold while other are stiff.
All in all i would say that these supplements really works in treating histadelia. Ofc there is some placebo effect but their help is undeniable. I guess it is only the matter of time for it to be officially accepted. I guess drug companies are behind of this. They might be not happy that these mental diseases could be treated with simple vitamins and aminoacids, not with addictive drugs like benzos, who only treat symptoms, but give them stable income.
Andi Mell said,
October 15, 2011 at 1:36 pm
Not sure what your interest and focus is in regards to histadelia, but you are getting too caught up in evidence based medicine, they are 20 to 40 years behind research. Just because something hasn’t been or even has been published in Pub Med makes it true, there are many driving factors to consider. Consider that pharmaceuticals have never cured anything, in fact almost always a side effect of the drug is exactly what it is supposed to treat. Pharmaceuticals only treat symptoms, not causes. But they can be patented and sold to earn billions. Consider that Dr. Linus Pauling was included in a list of the 20 greatest scientists of all time by the magazine New Scientist. Over his life time in addition to his two Nobel Prizes, he was awarded nearly 40 honorary degrees, PhD’s and DSc’s. Yet evidence based medicine still considers his work radical. Can’t patent nature and its substances and there is no profit in that.
There is a lot of information and misinformation out there, difficult to get through. One has to read everything and learn to read between the lines to come to the best conclusion. Good health is not any pill, its a lifestyle that requires effort through physical movement and good nutrition. Chronic stress is the number one contributor to all chronic illness and difficult to treat in modern life.
jdc325 said,
October 15, 2011 at 3:51 pm
“Not sure what your interest and focus is in regards to histadelia, but you are getting too caught up in evidence based medicine, they are 20 to 40 years behind research.”
That’s just not true – evidence-based medicine incorporates the best available evidence, including the most up-to-date research. Why do you think doctors subscribe to journals? And if there is research that shows that (a) histadelia exists and (b) it can be treated then why haven’t Dr Kaslow or the Pfeiffer Treatment Center provided it when requested?
“Consider that pharmaceuticals have never cured anything, in fact almost always a side effect of the drug is exactly what it is supposed to treat. Pharmaceuticals only treat symptoms, not causes.”
You’re going to need to cite some evidence to support those assertions.
“Consider that Dr. Linus Pauling was included in a list of the 20 greatest scientists of all time by the magazine New Scientist. Over his life time in addition to his two Nobel Prizes, he was awarded nearly 40 honorary degrees, PhD’s and DSc’s. Yet evidence based medicine still considers his work radical.”
Linus Pauling was a great chemist – but he was wrong about a number of things. For example, the structure of DNA. Here, from the Linus Pauling Institute, is a quote on Linus Pauling’s error:
Pauling was also wrong about other things. You can read about Pauling’s obsession with vitamin C here.
“There is a lot of information and misinformation out there, difficult to get through. One has to read everything and learn to read between the lines to come to the best conclusion.”
No, one has to learn how to find reliable information. Hint: you won’t find it on Dr Kaslow’s page about histadelia, or in one of Patrick Holford’s books. Or on one of the “Optimum Nutrition” websites.
Alan Henness (@zeno001) said,
October 15, 2011 at 4:18 pm
Andi Mell said:
Yes, there certainly is. Frequently in the comments on helpful and informative blog posts.
Andi Mell said,
October 15, 2011 at 6:34 pm
@jdc325:
1) Who funds the research? Evidence – still not a proven fact and there is too much politics involved for me to want to get into it.
Re. a) & b) I don’t know, you’ll have to ask them. Read more carefully, I never advocated for Kaslow or Holford.
2) I’ll give you a few examples:
A review of chemo on 5-year survival rates in the US, Canada and Australia garnered almost identical results, with not even a 2.5 percent success rate. In the U.S., chemo was most successful in treating testicular cancer and Hodgkin’s disease, with a success rate of around 40 percent.
A more common drug such as blood pressure medication blocks a function therefore treating the symptom and is taken over the long term – no cure. Read the side effect literature on any drug, its widely available.
3) “If I find 10,000 ways something won’t work, I haven’t failed. I am not discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is another step forward.”
“The doctor of the future will give no medicine, but will interest her or his patients in the care of the human frame, in a proper diet, and in the cause and prevention of disease.”
– Thomas A. Edison
“A blind faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth”
– Albert Einstein
4) “No, one has to learn how to find reliable information.” Not sure why you say “No” and then paraphrase what I said. Thanks for making my point, s sorry you missed the point.
Andi Mell said,
October 15, 2011 at 6:44 pm
@Alan Henness:
Don’t care to make assumptions. Your response could be of sarcasm or in agreement. In any case a useless comment, which contributes nothing of value.
jdc325 said,
October 16, 2011 at 1:01 pm
This is excellent. The person who (rather than providing evidence) cited the opinions of Dr Linus Pauling (referring to: “his two Nobel Prizes”; “nearly 40 honorary degrees, PhD’s and DSc’s”; and Pauling’s inclusion in “a list of the 20 greatest scientists of all time”), is now posting quotes from Edison on nutrition and health (hint: Edison was neither a dietitian nor a doctor) and (hang on to your irony meters, folks) this quote from Einstein… “A blind faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth”.
jdc325 said,
October 16, 2011 at 1:12 pm
“1) Who funds the research? Evidence – still not a proven fact and there is too much politics involved for me to want to get into it.
Re. a) & b) I don’t know, you’ll have to ask them. Read more carefully, I never advocated for Kaslow or Holford.”
Who funds the research? Depends what research you’re talking about…
Edzard Ernst’s research into complementary and alternative medicine was funded by Maurice Laing (who originally funded the chair that bears his name because he was an advocate of CAM). Some research is funded by government grants, some by private companies. You seem to be very focused on who pays for research rather than whether the research is of good quality (is the study well-designed? does the paper properly describe what was done?).
There’s too much politics for you to want to get into evidence? I find this statement confusing. Are you sure you don’t mean “I’d rather make stuff up than find out what the evidence says, and vague mumbling about conflicts of interest and politics usually helps me get away with ignoring the evidence”?
I referred to Kaslow and Holford, and the Pfeiffer Treatment Center in my earlier reply because they are the ones who’ve made claims about histadelia and they are the ones who should (a) have the evidence to hand and (b) make it public in order to substantiate their claims. I referred to the research on histadelia because you made the ridiculous claim that EBM is “20 to 40 years behind research” – you brought up the “research” into histadelia, and I gave my take on that. So now you’ve changed your mind and you don’t want to talk about this “research”? Make your mind up, Andi.
jdc325 said,
October 16, 2011 at 1:45 pm
“2) I’ll give you a few examples:
A review of chemo on 5-year survival rates in the US, Canada and Australia garnered almost identical results, with not even a 2.5 percent success rate. In the U.S., chemo was most successful in treating testicular cancer and Hodgkin’s disease, with a success rate of around 40 percent.
A more common drug such as blood pressure medication blocks a function therefore treating the symptom and is taken over the long term – no cure. Read the side effect literature on any drug, its widely available.”
Re chemo: read this.
WRT your original claim (“pharmaceuticals have never cured anything”), I’d just like to point out that a single example of a pharmaceutical drug curing a condition is sufficient to prove your statement is false. Have you ever heard of antibiotics or anti-fungals? How is leprosy cured? Candida? How about aspergillosis? Cystitis? Athlete’s Foot? Brucellosis?
I’d also point out that your focus on “cure” ignores the significant positive impact that symptom management and prevention of complications can have.
jdc325 said,
October 16, 2011 at 1:50 pm
Your third point is an appeal to authority and it is unclear what point you’re actually trying to make – is it supposed to be a rebuttal of my previous argument that an appeal to the authority of Linus Pauling was inappropriate? (Particularly in discussion of an area in which he was not an expert – you’ll have noted from the Science-Based Medicine blog I linked to that Pauling was not a clinician and that his studies on vitamins were poorly designed.) If so, then I think it’s a bit silly to cite a physicist and an inventor in further attempts to appeal to authority.
jdc325 said,
October 16, 2011 at 1:59 pm
“4) “No, one has to learn how to find reliable information.” Not sure why you say “No” and then paraphrase what I said. Thanks for making my point, s sorry you missed the point.”
How does learning how to find reliable information equate to “reading everything, and learning to read between the lines”? (Hint: it doesn’t.) In order to find reliable information, you need to know what different types of trials can be used, what biases these trials are subject to, what the “gold standard” of trials is, whether research has been peer-reviewed, whether research has been replicated, whether research is representative of the work in the field you’re interested in (is it a single cherry-picked study? is it a meta analysis of well-conducted RCTs? is it merely an opinion piece?), whether it’s been published in a reputable journal, who funded the research… See also this on how to write a paper and this PDF on how to read a paper.
How does all that equate to “reading between the lines”? What do you even mean by “reading between the lines”?
Andi Mell said,
October 16, 2011 at 9:01 pm
Wow …. guess I kicked over a hornets nest. There is obviously no sharing of ideas or friendly discussion possible with you. You are an intolerant pseudo intellectual, interested only in picking apart irrelevant details rather then looking at the whole story (Hint: You misunderstood everything). Well, at least I gave you some hours of purpose? Seriously all this after my post? And out of your link about the great Dr. Linus Pauling, you only got that he was wrong about the “triple-helical structure for DNA”. The scientific community begs to differ. Your Twitter avatar and intro seems a fit. You are a sad, little man James.
jdc325 said,
October 17, 2011 at 8:35 pm
We’ve shared ideas and had a reasonably friendly discussion (I don’t think I’ve been particularly unfriendly – and certainly not vitriolic – although I will admit that my “hints” were patronising and I apologise for that). In the absence of supporting evidence, I didn’t think much of the ideas that you shared with me. But still – we have shared ideas, whether they’ve been substantiated or not. Do any of your ideas come with substantiation? I’d genuinely like to see the supporting evidence for your claims.
You seem to think I’m missing the point and being pedantic about unimportant details. Let’s, rather than picking apart irrelevant details, look at the whole story: people are making unsubstantiated claims about a disease, a test and a treatment; I’m challenging them to substantiate their claims; they’re ignoring my challenges. That’s pretty much it.
Oh, there’s more for me to address. Well, here goes:
(1) Did you read the second link I gave re Pauling? (The one about Pauling’s obsession with vitamin C.) Anyway, my point was (my apologies if I wasn’t sufficiently clear) that Pauling might have been a great chemist but he wasn’t always right. It’s not good enough to rely on an appeal to Pauling’s authority – you need evidence that shows he was correct with his vitamin pill hypotheses. I hope you’ve also now grasped that Pauling is not really an authority on whether vitamin pills are a cure for colds, cancer, or whatever – not his area.
(2) With what do the scientific community beg to differ? That Pauling’s incorrect theory about the structure of DNA was not the only thing he got wrong, or that he got the structure of DNA wrong? Pauling proposed a triple helix. DNA has a double helix.
Thanks for the distance diagnosis. Rather than spending your time reading my twitter bio and making comments on my personality, perhaps you’d like to actually respond to the points I raised in my previous responses to you? If you can, that is…
You seem to have abandoned discussion and debate for content-free posts insulting me. There was the “hornets’ nest” comment implying that I’m (unreasonably?) worked up about this discussion; the “intolerant pseudo intellectual” jibe; the final flourish of “sad, little man” (which, incidentally, I’m not – I’m 5’11” and rather happy at the moment, thankyouverymuch).
Andi Mell said,
October 18, 2011 at 1:54 am
And you completely missed the point again, James. First off, I wasn’t referring to your height. I know you look at medical studies you’ve thrown all the lingo around, you like to use a lot of big words, but you don’t understand the context of your own links. You pick out minor details that appeal to your believe system, and miss the general point. I’m not the only one to notice.
Is anyone ever right about everything? Of course not, neither was Dr. Pauling, but that doesn’t take away from all of the great work he has done. And that is why I quoted Edison and Einstein. Here is another great quote: “The Road to Success is Paved With Failures”, the point is that we all make mistakes, but they don’t define us unless we don’t learn from them. The article about Pauling was only favorable and explained why he made the mistake in the first place, he was humble and complimentary toward Watson and Crick: “When Pauling saw the Watson and Crick model of DNA, he immediately recognized it as the correct structure and graciously praised them for the discovery.”
I’m not against studies and research, but it isn’t the end all. Studies are expensive and difficult, as well as sometimes guided to have the desired outcome. All too often do we dismiss the experience of competent professionals.
You don’t understand cause and symptom, consider that before tweeting. BTW I’m one person. Your example of antibiotics is incorrect, antibiotics don’t cure anything or after taking them we would never get a bacterial infection again. For that matter they are prescribed all to frequently and have a negative effect on essential gut flora among many other problems. The cure is to change the environment so that essential bacteria can thrive rather then non-essential. In fact Pasteur on his death bed is reported to have admitted that Beauchamp’s theory was right, that all disease starts with the condition of the body rather then germs. You may make the argument that vaccines are cures of disease, but I would tell you that the benefits don’t outweigh the risks and are not essential for a healthy person and that may open a new can of worms. Consider how we survived and thrived for so long without drugs. Evidence you ask? Well, for me my health and life experience are evidence enough. The secret to good health is no one pill, drug or nutrient, anybody looking for that is on a fools errand. That said it doesn’t take away from the importance of vitamin C for example. I’m not interested in exchanging medical research papers, but rather ideas and experiences to inspire critical thinking and if nothing else a friendly dialog of agreeing to disagree.
You may be interested in this link: http://www.drlwilson.com/articles/antibiotics.htm
jdc325 said,
October 18, 2011 at 4:20 pm
“I know you look at medical studies you’ve thrown all the lingo around, you like to use a lot of big words, but you don’t understand the context of your own links. You pick out minor details that appeal to your believe system, and miss the general point. I’m not the only one to notice.”
It might be helpful if you could pick out an example of my “misunderstanding the context of a link” and “missing the general point”. I used the Linus Pauling Institute page to demonstrate that even they accept that Pauling wasn’t perfect and made mistakes. I linked to the SBM blog to show that, on the subject of vitamins and health, Pauling was not an expert. When you refer to “all the great work” Pauling has done, are you including his poorly-conducted trials in that? Because that is the work that is relevant.
“I’m not against studies and research, but it isn’t the end all. Studies are expensive and difficult, as well as sometimes guided to have the desired outcome. All too often do we dismiss the experience of competent professionals.”
They’ve been making claims about histadelia for decades now and have zero research to back up these claims. They haven’t even done relatively cheap, preliminary studies.
“You don’t understand cause and symptom, consider that before tweeting.”
OK, why don’t you help me out and explain them to me.
“Your example of antibiotics is incorrect, antibiotics don’t cure anything or after taking them we would never get a bacterial infection again.”
Antibiotics cure the infection – they don’t give you immunity from all future infections.
“In fact Pasteur on his death bed is reported to have admitted that Beauchamp’s theory was right, that all disease starts with the condition of the body rather then germs.”
Really? Are you sure? See this link here? I suggest you read it. (Brilliantly, this is yet another example of your tendency to appeal to authority rather than cite evidence. Do you understand the Einstein quote you posted earlier?)
“Consider how we survived and thrived for so long without drugs.”
I don’t suppose you have looked at life expectancy prior to the advances of medicine such as antibiotics and vaccines have you? I suggest you do so now.
“Evidence you ask? Well, for me my health and life experience are evidence enough.”
Ah, the anecdote – the lowest form of evidence. Please try again.
“I’m not interested in exchanging medical research papers, but rather ideas and experiences to inspire critical thinking and if nothing else a friendly dialog of agreeing to disagree.”
See, this is the thing. You’re not interested in reading research. You’d rather make stuff up, or believe things that other people have made up. Critical thinking? Perhaps you should try it sometime. As for “agreeing to disagree”, if you present an opinion on a subjective matter then I’d be happy to exchange views and agree to disagree. If you want people to “agree to disagree” on matters of fact, then I’m going to be a big disappointment to you.
Andi Mell said,
October 18, 2011 at 8:45 pm
You really are a sad little man, James. I actually thought after your last reply you had calmed down, but you simply are an intolerant pseudo intellectual. You are just not able to look at the bigger picture, you hang on to those little details and trample them with your limited unwavering views. There is no example to pick, you didn’t understand the context of the article from your own link, period. And no, you didn’t post the link to show that he wasn’t perfect and made mistakes. You said he was wrong, I suggested that nobody is perfect which is why I listed the quotes you so nonchalantly trifled. Like I said before, Pauling’s peers would beg to differ with you.
Re. Histadelia, it simply means high histamine and who really cares. I don’t know why there hasn’t been any study, there is a number of reason why somebody could have chronic elevated histamine levels. Its a symptom, the more important part is the cause, which is always disregarded by conventional medicine. Only symptoms are treated not causes and no again, antibiotics don’t cure. They treat what your immune system couldn’t and that’s your cause. In fact antibiotics eventually rather further suppress the immune system. Did you read and dismiss the link I sent you or simply not bother? Whether Pasteur did or didn’t wasn’t the point, the point was that it isn’t the germs and as Dr. Lipton’s professor pointed out: “Its the environment stupid”.
I stand by what I said: “My health and life experience are evidence enough for me”. I read plenty, from competent experience professionals, I’m not interested in reviewing research studies with you. You have only demonstrated that you make a lot of assumptions and lack critical thinking. What is your health like? How many meds are you on? Why are you so intolerant and bitter to alternative ideas? Without the challenge to the conventional there is no progress. It’s like freedom of speech, you have to take the good with the bad. By the time you suppress a single word, there is no freedom of speech.
Have you ever noticed that some MD’s will include alternative treatments in their practice, even attain extra degrees? Weil coined it “integrative medicine”, it never happens the other way around.
In closing I will leave you with another quote. I like good quotes they say so much in few words: “Those who are constantly at war with others are seldom at peace with themselves.”
Cheers
Andi
jdc325 said,
October 19, 2011 at 4:57 pm
“You really are a sad little man, James. I actually thought after your last reply you had calmed down, but you simply are an intolerant pseudo intellectual.”
Again with the insults and the insinuation that I’m angry about something. If you’ve inferred from my replies to you that I’m angry then perhaps you’re not as good at ‘reading between the lines’ as you think you are.
I’d also point out that, given that you are the only person who is being insulting, readers might reasonably assume that if anyone is angry it is you.
“You are just not able to look at the bigger picture, you hang on to those little details and trample them with your limited unwavering views. There is no example to pick, you didn’t understand the context of the article from your own link, period. And no, you didn’t post the link to show that he wasn’t perfect and made mistakes. You said he was wrong, I suggested that nobody is perfect which is why I listed the quotes you so nonchalantly trifled. Like I said before, Pauling’s peers would beg to differ with you.”
You seem to be unable to actually tell me why I’m wrong and what ‘bigger picture’ I’m supposed to be missing.
I quite clearly explained that I chose an example of Linus Pauling being demonstrably wrong in order to show that an appeal to authority rather than evidence was unwise. You seem unable to understand this point or the method by which I attempted to communicate it to you.
Pauling’s peers would beg to differ with me on what? You still haven’t explained this, despite my having asked you.
“Re. Histadelia, it simply means high histamine and who really cares.”
This is the topic of the blog post you are commenting on, so presumably you care. If not, then why comment on the post?
“I don’t know why there hasn’t been any study, there is a number of reason why somebody could have chronic elevated histamine levels.”
Evidence that this problem exists? Evidence that the test developed for histadelia works? Evidence that the treatments suggested by Pfeiffer, Holford, Kaslow et al works?
“Did you read and dismiss the link I sent you or simply not bother?”
I read it. Straw men, unsupported assertions, and promotion of materials sold by Dr L Wilson. What was I supposed to take from the article?
“I read plenty, from competent experience professionals…”
You appear not to have understood the blog post or any of the comments I have addressed to you. This does not fill me with confidence in your ability to interpret the writings of competent experienced professionals. I’d also be interested in who these professionals are – you might be placing your trust in people who do not have expertise in the relevant field (I think this is particularly plausible given your appeals to authority in this thread).
“You have only demonstrated that you make a lot of assumptions and lack critical thinking.”
Examples of these would be welcome. Please feel free to provide…
“What is your health like? How many meds are you on?”
My health is excellent, thank you for asking. I don’t currently take any medication, as I am not suffering from any illness or infection.
“Why are you so intolerant and bitter to alternative ideas?”
I don’t think I am intolerant and bitter – I’d be happy to accept ‘alternative ideas’ if there were some substannce to them. Please do feel free to provide such substantiation.
“Without the challenge to the conventional there is no progress. It’s like freedom of speech, you have to take the good with the bad. By the time you suppress a single word, there is no freedom of speech.”
How am I suppressing free speech and/or ideas? I’m simply using my freedom of speech to ask the advocates of some particular tests and treatments what basis there is for their hypotheses. And they’re choosing not to exercise their freedom of speech by replying.
“Have you ever noticed that some MD’s will include alternative treatments in their practice, even attain extra degrees? Weil coined it “integrative medicine”, it never happens the other way around.”
Are you perhaps suggesting that medics are open-minded enough to be willing to try other approaches whereas those who are advocates of alternative medicine are closed-minded and intolerant of other approaches?
“In closing I will leave you with another quote. I like good quotes they say so much in few words: “Those who are constantly at war with others are seldom at peace with themselves.””
Thank you for the quote. I don’t see its relevance though, given that I’m not at war with others.
I’d like to close with a question: if you’re right, then why, instead of answering the points I’ve raised, supplying supporting evidence, or presenting a coherent argument have you posted insults, irrelevancies, a link to a single poorly-written article (packed with straw men, with evidence conspicuous by its absence) by someone promoting their own commercial interests and, finally, (often irrelevant) quotes? I’d have thought that if you actually had a point you’d be able to make it clearly, back it up with substantiation where relevant, and argue your case. It seems to me that you don’t – which is why you’ve fallen back on (a) quoting a few smart individuals (with scant regard to relevance), (b) making odd remarks about symptoms and causes that suggest you understand neither and (c) posting insulting remarks.
Andi Mell said,
October 20, 2011 at 3:43 am
If you dish it out James, you should be able to take it. To answer your final question, I don’t have the time nor interest to hold your hand and draw you a picture. I have given you lots of feedback and you simply don’t understand. I’ll give you an easy example, I wasn’t talking about freedom of speech. I was talking about progress and tolerance. Opening once mind to unconventional ideas, understanding what is behind it and not simply dismissing it because its new and unconventional. Sort of like the idea that the earth is round, when everyone thought it was flat. It takes guts to go against convention, even with a good argument. And that should also answer your questions about professionals in alternative medicine. You don’t start out with alternative and unconventional views, only after critically examining conventional thought and for that, one has to be open minded, tolerant and intelligent. Keep in mind I’m talking about competent professionals, on both sides will you find opportunists that are simply trying to make a buck. That said, just because somebody is making that buck, doesn’t necessarily make them an opportunistic charlatan.
Why the interest in medical information and what is your educational background?
Helen said,
October 20, 2011 at 3:58 pm
There’s an interesting semantic or possibly philosophical discussion to be had about the word “cure” and how we understand it. Arguably, while we remain mortal, there are no “cures” for anything. At the other extreme, because we’re mortal, there’s a cure for everything (in that cells can always be destroyed – a cure that comes at a price, if you’re needing to destroy a lot of them.)
There doesn’t seem to be a lot to discuss about histadelia which, as far as I can see, is an invention. Personal attacks on the blogger don’t make arguments for the existence of histadelia any more credible.
Andi Mell said,
October 22, 2011 at 4:37 pm
Its nice of you to come to James’ rescue, Helen. You are making a very artsy philosophical statement, non of which I was proposing. In the most general sense I was talking about freedom of choice, unfortunately that also means taking responsibility for choices made. To often legislation is passed to support popular opinion, taking the freedom to choose away form the individual, all in the name of protecting people. Its founded in idealism and seldom benefit those that it is supposed to protect. Its impossible to legislate against ignorance and stupidity, people make bad choices regardless. Knowledge and critical thinking is the answer and yes that is difficult, but legislating responsibility away only breeds more ignorance and stupidity. Nature’s law is survival of the fittest and no other species has the intelligence, function and fine motor skills as humans do. Too bad many of us waste these talents by poor lifestyle choices. The term healthy means to be free of disease, but in conventional medicine it now just means alive. A recent newspaper article read: “Missing B.C. woman with early dementia found in good health”, a perfect example of general accepted misinformation. Dementia is a serious end-stage disease and by the time you are on any regular meds, you are not healthy. All to often are we told that its just age related and that is just nonsense. There is so much more to it. As I was telling James, my health and life experience are evidence enough for me, which he nonchalantly dismisses. My family and friends alone provide a lot of useful experiences to draw from.
James gets hung up on medical studies as though they are the end all. Histadelia was hypothesized by Carl Pfeiffer and involves elevated serum levels of histamine and basophils. Just because no clinical trials have been conducted makes it untrue? I don’t know why studies haven’t been conducted and who really cares. I’m glad for the information, as it allows an individual further options to explore, together with a competent professional practitioner. Yes Helen, Histadelia is an invention, just like any other medical term for a disease. Its a possible combination of latin or greek prefixes, roots and suffixes to describe a symptom. Please understand if you put your point of view out there, there may be response. Possibly even alternate views, and one must expect that sarcasm, patronizing remarks and insults result in the same.
jdc325 said,
October 23, 2011 at 6:17 pm
“Histadelia was hypothesized by Carl Pfeiffer and involves elevated serum levels of histamine and basophils. Just because no clinical trials have been conducted makes it untrue?”
No, it makes it inappropriate for people to claim they have tests and treatments for histadelia. They don’t have the evidence to support those claims.
jdc325 said,
October 23, 2011 at 6:19 pm
“Histadelia is an invention, just like any other medical term for a disease.”
The thing is, it might not just be the name “Histadelia” that is an invention, it might be that the disease so named is also an invention. If it isn’t, then why is there no evidence of its existence? Why, if scientists and doctors are so sure that it exists, have they not done any research to demonstrate this?
Andi Mell said,
October 24, 2011 at 3:18 am
Hmm …… you know Vitamin C is a natural anti-histamine, I wonder how that would work on Histadelia?
jdc325 said,
October 24, 2011 at 7:07 pm
“Hmm …… you know Vitamin C is a natural anti-histamine, I wonder how that would work on Histadelia?”
It might work well. If histadelia existed.
Of course, if histadelia did exist and the proponents of the histadelia hypothesis actually demonstrated this by doing the appropriate research then they could do a double-blind, randomised, placebo-controlled trial of, say, vitamin C to see if it alleviated the symptoms. That’s what the above blog post is about. The lack of any such evidence. The lack of evidence that histadelia exists, and the lack of any evidence that the vitamins that Kaslow, Holford et al recommend alleviate the symptoms of ‘histadelia’.
You seem to think that histadelia exists and those with the condition can be treated successfully with vitamin C. Demonstrating this would not be that difficult. Yet none of the proponents of the histadelia hypothesis have done so. They prefer to make unsubstantiated claims. And why not? People such as yourself have clearly been convinced by them without their being required to provide any evidence.
Andi Mell said,
October 24, 2011 at 8:27 pm
I’m sorry James, I was being sarcastic and predictably you fell for it. You don’t have the slightest understanding of anything medical, therefore there is no point for further discussion. You are the perfect example of how a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. You are incapable of critical thinking and are part of the problem, that you are fighting. The danger is that people like Allen and Hellen come to your defense because they believe you provide something of value. The toughest thing to do is being self critical and understanding once limitations, I actually feel bad for you. Knowledge is a lifetime journey, to grow requires tolerance and the willingness to want to understand the opposing point of view. That takes one out of their comfort zone, which may lead to change and that in my experience is something most people are not willing to do.
Still wondering, why the interest in medical information and what is your educational background?
Cheers
Andi
jdc325 said,
October 25, 2011 at 7:08 pm
So rather than engage with the issues raised in this blog, you still prefer to post insulting comments? (Now with added “what are your qualifications?” challenges and “hahah, I was being sarcastic and you took my comment at face value” childishness.)
I see you’ve switched from making appeals to authority to asking whether I am an authority. The answer is that I am not. The thing is, though, I’m not claiming to be. And I don’t need to be an authority in order to request that people provide evidence for their claims.
jdc325 said,
October 27, 2011 at 3:31 pm
A comment from Andi Mell posted on the wrong thread has been fished out of Akismet’s spam filter:
jdc325 said,
October 27, 2011 at 3:49 pm
“I’ve not appealed to any authority”
Read your own posts back. They’re littered with quotes from people you clearly consider to be authorities. Why else would you quote them (and, in some cases, explicitly make a case for them being an authority)?
“I gave my opinion and pointed out how flawed your arguments are”
Where have you pointed out the flaws in my arguments? I don’t think you have…
“…which have certainly shown that you lack critical thinking and are not an authority in the least”
Please show where you have demonstrated that I lack critical thinking.
“You feel insulted, because I ask about your education?”
No – you’ve conflated two clearly separate issues there. I think you may be having trouble with your reading comprehension.
“The only profound thing you have said so far is: “I don’t need to be an authority in order to request that people provide evidence for their claims”. I have submitted the same challenge to you, which so far you have avoided.”
Which claims have I made and where did you request evidence to support these claims?
“You blog about medical issues, gripe at the lack of clinical studies, trifle alternate views and dismiss the professional experience and study of revered practitioners and scientists – stereotypical of a pharma advocate. You smell of a tool for pharmaceutical propaganda and if that is the case they must be getting desperate.”
Ah, here we go – this is what has been missing from your comments. The “pharma shill” gambit. There is not a jot of truth in this allegation and I can see no reason for you to make it.
“Remember one chooses to feel insulted: “Sticks and Stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me”.”
I didn’t say I felt hurt or insulted by your comments, I merely noted their insulting nature and wondered why you didn’t address the issues instead of posting insults.
“I don’t like making assumptions, I’m still wondering why the interest in medical information and your educational background?”
I don’t have a background in science or medicine and I don’t pretend to. I’m interested in medicine because I find it an interesting topic. I’m particularly interested (as you will have noticed) in pseudoscience and unsubstantiated claims. Basically, my interest is in bullshit. There’s plenty of it about.
Andi Mell said,
October 27, 2011 at 5:56 pm
That’s low, James. I posted a reply last night, which was deleted this morning. When I re-posted it didn’t show, so I tried your latest post, which is why I started with the question. Looking up Akismet’s spam filter, I realized my links may have caused my replies to end up in spam. Your comment on top of my reply is possibly dishonest and certainly patronizing.
You are using “appealing to authority” out of context, I posted some quotes and send you links to make a point. And sure I consider them great minds, I wouldn’t have used their quotes otherwise.
To answer your questions: You, have demonstrated, that you lack critical thinking. I have mentioned it several times already, how you dismiss the experience and study of revered professionals and that is also stereotypical for pharma advocates. I made no allegations, as I said I don’t like making assumptions. Just because you may not be a shill, doesn’t mean you are not a tool, which is at least due to your intolerance of alternate research and views.
Re. your last two sentences: How do you think you can judge what is and isn’t? What do you think your contribution is?
These are rhetorical questions, which I have answered over the course of my replies.
Cheers
Andi
jdc325 said,
October 27, 2011 at 6:11 pm
“I posted a reply last night, which was deleted this morning.”
I haven’t deleted any comments from you.
“I tried your latest post, which is why I started with the question.”
Your comment is relevant to this thread, which is why I pasted the text, in full, here. If you wish your comment to appear on the Breakspear thread too, then I can fish it out of the bin.
“Your comment on top of my reply is possibly dishonest and certainly patronizing.”
I disagree.
“You are using “appealing to authority” out of context, I posted some quotes and send you links to make a point.”
You cited the views of eminent scientists (and an inventor) in support of your arguments. None of these scientists were experts in a relevant field.
“To answer your questions: You, have demonstrated, that you lack critical thinking. I have mentioned it several times already, how you dismiss the experience and study of revered professionals and that is also stereotypical for pharma advocates.”
I don’t think dismissing irrelevant quotes and anecdotes in favour or reliable evidence equates to “lacking critical thinking”.
“Just because you may not be a shill, doesn’t mean you are not a tool, which is at least due to your intolerance of alternate research and views.”
I’m not intolerant of research into alternative medicine – I’ve linked to papers reporting on such research many times, in fact. If by “intolerance of alternate research” you mean “preference for reliable evidence, in the form of studies which take account of bias, over less reliable reports”, then I’m certainly guilty of that.
“Re. your last two sentences: How do you think you can judge what is and isn’t? What do you think your contribution is?”
By reading the best available evidence and interpreting it to the best of my ability. I have, on a number of occasions, requested that readers of my blog alert me to errors in order that they may be corrected. If I’m wrong about something, and you can demostrate this, then I will amend my post(s) to highlight and correct my error(s). I’ve certainly done this in the past and will continue to do so. My contribution to the internet is to snark about things that are wrong. I also support my snarking with substantiating evidence and encourage people to do the same with my writings as I have with the writings of others.
Andi Mell said,
October 27, 2011 at 6:46 pm
Come on James, I explained that I understand why my post was deleted. How did you possibly come to the conclusion that I also wanted it posted in your latest post? How would you be able to fish it out, you already did. My original post didn’t include the starting question and I explained that I tried re-posting several times, so sure there would be more of the same.
There is not need to answer a rhetorical question, I will spell it out for you: I was trying to tell you that you are not a judge on anything medical, you have demonstrated that by your nonchalant dismissal of revered experts and scholars. The best of your ability is just not good enough.
Other then that, just the same rhetoric again.
jdc325 said,
October 28, 2011 at 4:04 pm
“I will spell it out for you: I was trying to tell you that you are not a judge on anything medical, you have demonstrated that by your nonchalant dismissal of revered experts and scholars.”
No Andi, I have not demonstrated that I am a poor judge by dismissing your appeals to authority. You may have quoted some “revered experts and scholars”, but you haven’t provided a scrap of reliable evidence in favour of your arguments. A bit like Holford, Kaslow, and the Pfeiffer Treatment Center really…
A Brief Guide To Deflecting Criticism « Stuff And Nonsense said,
November 1, 2011 at 5:41 pm
[…] A couple of years ago, I had a comment from someone upset that I was sceptical of magic crystal skulls. Their comment focused on portraying me as a sad little man: “you probably spend a lot of time being miserable and arguing, don’t like yourself very much and have troubles relating to the opposite sex”. While not a million miles away from the truth, I fail to see how this was relevant to the magic crystal skulls being discussed. It was nothing but an attempt at distraction. More recently, I had this comment from someone using the exact phrase sad little man. […]
clayden0 said,
November 13, 2011 at 3:01 am
Well, I can attest to the existence of Histadelia. I have elevated histamine & basophils, low norepinephrine, serotonin. I have been diagnosed O.C.D and Anxiety. In seasonal changes my O.C.D gets worse, as does histamine ELEVATE. Also, being around cats, worsens my OCD…
“What have you to say now” ( Yoda )
LMAO
clayden0 said,
November 13, 2011 at 3:05 am
Oh and there is plenty of evidence. Let’s start with histamine’s PROVEN role as an EXCITORY neurotransmitter. We know excitory & inhibitory are opposites, right ? Low serotonin, is CONSISTENTLY implicated in OCD which is why SSRI’s are used as treatment. But, then it would make sense, histamine being excitory, OPPOSES serotonin. Again, they are opposites. Also, shall I remind that although I am no doctor, I am perfectly capable of looking this stuff up just as Andi & the others are. Deductable evidence has proven this, as well as people with OCD who have submitted their bloodwork to the institute.
jdc325 said,
November 13, 2011 at 5:24 pm
@ClaydenO, you say “there is plenty of evidence” but then you don’t actually provide any evidence that high histamine is linked to OCD or depression (let alone evidence that the treatments recommended by Holford et al actually work).
If the institute has evidence, then why not provide it? Why not prove the doubters wrong?
Andi Mell said,
November 13, 2011 at 11:17 pm
@ clayden0
On behalf of this post let me thank you for your reply. I’m sorry for James’ response, but he is only capable at picking out irrelevant details and always wants others to provide research for his posts. Unfortunately if you do, he doesn’t understand and the cycle continues.
All the best
Cheers
Andi
jdc325 said,
November 14, 2011 at 11:46 am
“…always wants others to provide research for his posts. Unfortunately if you do, he doesn’t understand and the cycle continues.”
As I pointed out above Andi, you haven’t provided a scrap of reliable evidence in favour of your arguments. And Holford, Kaslow et al haven’t provided a scrap of reliable evidence that (a) histedelia exists or (b) that it can be treated successfully with the pills they recommend. I don’t want people to “provide research for my posts” – I want them to substantiate their claims with evidence. If you don’t understand even that, then I’m afraid you’re going to find it very difficult to debate any topic in the fields of science or medicine. Remind me, Andi, since you were so keen to ask about my educational background – what are your qualifications?
Andi Mell said,
November 14, 2011 at 4:40 pm
Talk about beating a dead horse ….. As I mentioned already: “Histadelia was hypothesized by Carl Pfeiffer and involves elevated serum levels of histamine and basophils” and “Histadelia is an invention, just like any other medical term for a disease. Its a possible combination of latin or greek prefixes, roots and suffixes to describe a condition (originally I said symptom, that’s incorrect …. my bad)”.
You are still denying its existence …… its just a name given by Pfeiffer. Call it whatever you want ….. hyperhistaminebasophil. You already have two replies, telling you they have the condition and your are still arguing.
Why hasn’t there been a study? Doesn’t provide a cost benefit, a pharmaceutical company isn’t going to investigate an essential amino acid and a Vitamin as “corrector”. You can’t patent nature, too much competition and no real profit. What, do you think pharmaceutical companies are only interested in the benefit of man kind? They don’t care about the bottom line? What do you think about, when a new drug is released, sometimes a several hundred million dollar fund is set up in advance, to battle class action law suits down the road?
I answered your final question the first time you ask, in your Nov 5th post. Sorry for the late reply. How about you? Can you finally answer the question?
jdc325 said,
November 14, 2011 at 6:08 pm
“How about you? Can you finally answer the question?”
Would that be the question I answered here? I also clarified that response here, and asked what more there was for me to say. I see that you replied last night (a comment I have just read now), asking me to list my irrelevant qualifications. What a bizarre request. I’ve pointed out quite clearly that I have no relevant qualifications. How on earth can my irrelevant qualifications be informative? Never mind – I’ll answer your ridiculous question anyway. I studied Law, French, and Computer Science at A-Level. I have undertaken work-related training in accountancy, food safety, hazard analysis, and IT. None of my qualifications or experience are relevant, but there they are.
I note that in the same comment you have supplied your own list of irrelevant qualifications / experience: carpenter; mechanic; back rubber. Thank you for answering my question.
jdc325 said,
November 14, 2011 at 6:16 pm
“You already have two replies, telling you they have the condition and your are still arguing.”
…and you think I should accept two anecdotes from patients as evidence of the existence of histadelia. I’m not doubting their honesty or integrity – they may well believe they have histadelia. But how do they know? Because someone flogging pills to cure ‘histadelia’ told them?
If those providing treatment for ‘histadelia’ can provide reliable evidence that it exists or that their ‘remedies’ can cure it then they’re welcome to do so. The fact they have chosen not to suggests that such evidence does not exist.
“Why hasn’t there been a study? Doesn’t provide a cost benefit, a pharmaceutical company isn’t going to investigate an essential amino acid and a Vitamin as “corrector”. You can’t patent nature, too much competition and no real profit.”
People have been profiting from peddling the ‘histadelia’ hypothesis and the associated tests and ‘treatments’ for some time now – yet they haven’t done any research into whether histadelia exists, whether their tests are reliable, or whether their ‘treatments’ work. The pill-peddling nutritionism industry must have made enough money by now to be able to spend some of their profits on research. Those treating people for ‘histadelia’ could have published the data they have at their fingertips – they’ve chosen not to do even that. Those peddling pills for ‘histadelia’ should either put up or shut up – they should either provide evidence for their claims or stop bullshitting.
Andi Mell said,
November 14, 2011 at 8:32 pm
That’s the best you can do? More rhetoric and a cheap insult, which only further demonstrates how uninformed and intolerant you are. “clayden0″ was the last to tell you here: ” there is plenty of evidence”. At least he took responsibility for his own life, studied the available information and my guess, he made a decision on how to go about a treatment. You just dismiss it because its not on PubMed, as though they are the holy grail of medical information. You are the biggest BS here …… you’ve been told many times already …… boring.
P.S. My profession has nothing to do with caoutchouc or synthetic elastomers.
jdc325 said,
November 14, 2011 at 8:54 pm
”there is plenty of evidence”
Yet no-one has even come close to providing any reliable evidence. Not Holford, not Kaslow, not the PTC, and not the commenters here. People keep claiming there’s evidence but all that’s been provided is a couple of personal anecdotes and ClaydenO’s argument in favour of the plausibility of the hypothesis.
As for your accusation that the best I can do is “more rhetoric and a cheap insult”, that comes from someone who has posted nothing but rhetoric and cheap insults in his comments here. Do you not see just how hypocritical that is?
Andi Mell said,
November 15, 2011 at 3:05 am
@ James
You’ll have to venture out of your comfort zone and try some other sources, rather then just PubMed.
If you dish it out James, then you should be able to take it as well. At least I have come up with some rather amusing anecdotes (or bon mot), unlike your out of context and mindless remarks.
…….. boring
jdc325 said,
November 15, 2011 at 8:23 pm
“You’ll have to venture out of your comfort zone and try some other sources, rather then just PubMed.”
OK, then point me to the evidence supporting the histadelia hypothesis that exists outside Pubmed. Let’s take a look at it and see how good it is.
“At least I have come up with some rather amusing anecdotes (or bon mot), unlike your out of context and mindless remarks.”
Really? Where? I’m afraid I must have missed them.
Andi Mell said,
November 15, 2011 at 8:36 pm
@ James
I’ve told you many times already, I don’t care to hold your hand and guide you along. Google it or buy a book. It’s your post, do your own research or write about something you understand.
Of course you missed it ….. you’re dumb.
……….. still boring
jdc325 said,
November 15, 2011 at 8:59 pm
“Of course you missed it ….. you’re dumb.”
That… or you’re not as funny as you think you are.
“……….. still boring”
But still you can’t break away. You must be very committed to this conversation to want to continue it if I’m so very boring.
“I’ve told you many times already, I don’t care to hold your hand and guide you along. Google it or buy a book. It’s your post, do your own research or write about something you understand.”
I bought the book and I did the searching on Google. A long time before I wrote the blog post you’re commenting on. You can see what I found here.
PS: if you think the best way to find reliable evidence is to simply google for it, then you’re going to be placing your trust in some very unreliable websites. Unless you have good quality control. Which, given your enthusiasm for Naturopathic Doctors, is something I find it easy to doubt.
Caroline said,
November 16, 2011 at 9:33 am
@Andi
Consider that pharmaceuticals have never cured anything, in fact almost always a side effect of the drug is exactly what it is supposed to treat. Pharmaceuticals only treat symptoms, not causes.
Really? Since you seem to like anecdote rather than evidence, here’s a couple from me. A few years ago, I woke up one morning with a nasty sore on my face – weeping fliued that crusted up. It was unsightly and uncomfortable rather than life-threatening. My doc prescrobed an antibiotic cream, that I applied that morning and again, before bed. The following morning, as I tried to do the 3rd application again, the entire crusty mess lifted off leaving unbroken skin. I have never had this issue again. Is that not a cure?
Secondly – There was the time I was prescribed oral antibiotics for a mosquito bite. This was a very nasty thing – I was bitten on the thigh and within 6 hours I had a very hot red sore a over a foot in diameter on my leg. Seriously, it almost met itself around the back. But the antibiotics started to work almost immediately. Would you say that’s a cure? I admit, I’ve been bitten by nastly flying insects again, since. Or would you expect a ‘proper cure’ to prevent that? If so, how?
Caroline said,
November 16, 2011 at 9:35 am
I’d like to apologise for my spelling in the previous post – I’m new here and had a bit of trouble with the comment box.
Andi Mell said,
November 16, 2011 at 9:36 pm
Well hello Caroline. Based on your description it sounds like “Impetigo” and no its not a cure. I don’t know you, what exactly it was, your general health or the extend of the problem. Based on your comment you applied the antibiotic cream the same morning already. My question would be, did you really need the cream? Our immune system is quite amazing and efficient (in a healthy individual), but it still takes at least a couple of days. At best you could consider it a corrector, but did it boost your immunity? That’s not how antibiotics work, on the contrary long term use has shown the opposite.
Secondly, again I don’t know you or the circumstances. You say it was a mosquito bite, did anybody else around you get bitten? What was their reaction to the bite? How is you general health? If it was a simple mosquito bite, I would wonder why there was such an adverse reaction. I lived in the tropics for a good number of years and had Dengue fever twice, but that lasted a few days at best and I took no medicine. I value my health and always stay fit and strong.
I would encourage you to read the article about antibiotics and read it with an open mind, here is the link again: http://www.drlwilson.com/articles/antibiotics.htm
Furthermore don’t make assumptions, it doesn’t add anything of value.
Andi Mell said,
November 16, 2011 at 9:45 pm
Here is a little video I have always enjoyed:
Caroline said,
November 17, 2011 at 3:09 pm
Andi – 1) Impetigo is exactly what the doc said it was – and with the cream it was fixed in 24 hours. I would have expected at least a few days for my body to shake off such a thing. 2) I didn’t actually see the mosquito, but based on external factors including weather, time of year and my location that’s the most likely little bloodsucker. Sadly, I’m allergic to them, which means I’d have swollen up anyway, probably for about 3 days. But mere hours showed a definite difference after taking the anti-biotics.
I’m not stupid – I don’t take them for colds etc, because I know they don’t work on viruses.
You do seem to have a very strange definition of cure. Seems like I wouldn’t even be able to say that eating food cures hunger – because after all, the body will only get hungry again in a few hours. I think you’ll find that pretty much any living creature will want to eat when they’re hungry, though.
vertigowooyay said,
November 17, 2011 at 3:14 pm
Andi
Top trolling. Bravo.
Of coure, it’s that whole peer review system that would very quickly prove Skidmarks Disease to be nonsense which rather invalidates your YouTube clip. It’s poorly animated and badly written as well, but the thing is. I’m big enough to know the difference between a subjective view and an actual fact. It’s my subjective view that it’s poorly animated and badly written, but it’s a fact that what you’ve been posting here is nonsense, and very easily disproved nonsense.
Perhaps you’d like to point to any good peer reviewed studies that back up your claim that drugs have never cured something?
Andi Mell said,
November 17, 2011 at 4:21 pm
@ Caroline
Did you read the link? Taking the antibiotics may speed up the process, however I don’t believe that the benefit of vanity is worth the risks.
Secondly, you didn’t think that your allergy was an important fact to mention? I’ve heard of allergic reactions to antibiotics and antibiotics linked to a huge rise in allergies, but I’ve never heard of taking antibiotics for allergies. Our gut flora is an arm of the immune system, a research group has provided experimental evidence in mice, that upsetting the gut flora can provoke an allergic response. You might find interesting that research in Berlin, Germany, has found that both antibiotic treatment and asthma were low in the east compared to the west when the wall came down. However antibiotic use has increased in the east since and so has asthma. This is quite interesting because although politically divided, the people were genetically very similar and enjoyed much of the same foods.
Not sure why so defensive, I haven’t insinuated that you are stupid. Nor did I mention anything about using antibiotics for a cold or viruses.
I think your comparative of using cure to describe satisfying hunger is more strange. It maybe a slang, but certainly not the correct use.
Andi Mell said,
November 17, 2011 at 4:30 pm
@ vertigowooyay
Clever and funny handle. I accept your opinion, but disagree. This parody shows more thought and is certainly more more clever and funny then your handle.
Your request is just silly. Name a drug that has cured something and don’t come up with antibiotics again, it’s been covered.
Andi Mell said,
November 17, 2011 at 4:32 pm
@ vertigowooyay
BTW how long have you been commenting here?
doomrock said,
November 17, 2011 at 5:22 pm
Yeah vertigowooyay! Andi was here first so just STFU OK.
vertigowooyay said,
November 17, 2011 at 6:06 pm
Andi: “Don’t come up with antibiotics again, it’s been covered”
Yes it has. Covered to the point that it takes your assertation that drugs have never cured anything and makes a mockery of it.
And just about your graciously accepting my opinion: I’ll just refer you to that whole subjective opinion / fact thing I explained. It may be your opinion that my ‘handle’ (Christ, what is this? 1986 and the craze of CB radio?) is unfunny and I can’t say that’s false, because it’s your opinion. However, when you say that drugs have never cured anything – in the face of massive medical advances, the eradication of many diseases and the fact we’re all living longer, and of course the fact that antibiotics work* – that’s categorically false because it’s a fact that drugs have cured diseases. Not all of them, but really quite a few.
I’ve been commenting here since I found a bona fide fruitloop troll in your good self. What are you, some kind of doorman for someone elses blog?
* just to clarify, your notion that an antibiotic cure means ‘never getting an infection again’ rather than curing an immediate problem is a fantastic piece of batshittery.
Andi Mell « Well Known Trolls said,
November 17, 2011 at 6:12 pm
[…] of “Dr D Naturopath“, Andi Mell is a bit of a failure as a troll. As can be seen here and here, all Andi has to offer is criticism of sentence structure (for a grammar pedant, Andi has […]
Caroline said,
November 18, 2011 at 12:57 pm
Andi,
“Secondly, you didn’t think that your allergy was an important fact to mention? ”
To my doctor, when I sought his advice? Yes. I did tell him and he took it into account, but still gave me antibiotics for what was, at that time a very debilitating condition.
Vanity? I don’t go to the doctor over vanity.
Andi Mell said,
November 18, 2011 at 3:36 pm
@ vertigowooyay
Never said your “handle” is unfunny. You’re making assumptions and misrepresented my comment. What do you think my opinion of you should be? Read it again.
@ Caroline
You ask and I answered. I believe in individual freedom, you made your choice. My choice would have been different.
vertigowooyay said,
November 19, 2011 at 9:17 am
Andi. While your passive aggressive nonsense has a certain charm, you’re playing the obvious troll card of “I never meant that” after you’ve played your passive aggressive nonsense.
” This parody shows more thought and is certainly more more clever and funny then your handle.”
Do you see? What you wrote basically means to any rational person that you’re having a dig at my online name which you’re implying is unfunny, and no amount of your troll bullshit changes that.
But hey, at least you came back with something insubstantial, instead of defending your naturopath idiocy.
You got proof drugs have never cured anything yet?
Thought not. But thanks for playing.
Andi Mell said,
November 19, 2011 at 2:59 pm
Well Dan, your summary is completely subjective. Sometimes it’s just what it says it is. I’m sorry I didn’t mean to hurt your feelings, if you look at it objectively, you will quickly realize. I think your online name is very funny, I can actually picture it. And the “wooyay” is a very clever way to describe the action. However its just a made up name, compared to the whole parody “Town of Allopath” on YouTube. Certainly didn’t require as much thought and effort to put together. Sorry you didn’t like it the short video of: “Town of Allopath” on YouTube. Oh and thanks for the compliment.
jon said,
November 19, 2011 at 4:30 pm
Hi Andi, since you like parodies, you’re gonna love this one – I guarantee it:
http://crispian-jago.blogspot.com/2009/06/homeopathy-sketch.html
and1mell said,
November 21, 2011 at 3:41 pm
@ vertigowooyay
BTW, sorry didn’t answer your last question Dan.
No, I don’t have proof that drugs cure. That’s just my point, hence my earlier question: “Name a drug that has cured something” ……. can you?
vertigowooyay said,
November 23, 2011 at 4:50 pm
Andi – your quite obvious and willful misreading of what I asked would be quite hilarious if it weren’t so mendacious. I clearly asked if you had proof the drugs had never cured anything, not proof that drugs cure. If that’s your debating technique, you’re either being disingenuous, or are just a bit dim when it comes to comprehension.
Whether you like it or not, antibiotics have cures infections. You’re saying ‘that doesn’t count’ doesn’t make it less true.
I have an eye condition that I take eye drops for. I’d say that’s cured it from the point of view that I haven’t gone blind from glaucoma as a result of the condition.
vertigowooyay said,
November 23, 2011 at 4:52 pm
Also, do you think your ability to have found out my actual name from my online name is somehow intimidatory? It isn’t, but your suddenly using it here seems to indicate you do.
Another quack bully.
Andi Mell said,
November 24, 2011 at 5:41 pm
@ vertigowooyay
67) No Dan, I’ve already told you that your request is simply silly. Why not answer my question? You haven’t been able to come up with a drug that cures, of course that’s because they are all correctors of symptoms and conditions …… not cures.
Antibiotics don’t cure bacterial infections, they are correctors. They do what the immune system couldn’t for various reasons. They certainly don’t fix or boost the immune system, in fact quite the opposite with long term use. That said it’s not all bad, considering the benefit of staying alive, antibiotics are worth the risks. However they are over prescribed, antibiotics should only ever be a last resort. I don’t think the benefits of immediate comfort and vanity, are worth the risks. It takes at least 3 months to restore normal gut flora after one course of antibiotics.
I’m sorry for your glaucoma, I’m sure it’s no fun. Blindness is nothing to look forward too, my grandfather lost his sight in WW II.
Re your glaucome, are you telling me that a course of the drops cured your eye condition, as in removing the cause and you don’t have to take the drops ever again? I find that hard to believe, that’s not how it works. The drops have to be used on a regular basis, simply making it a corrector.
Did you know exercise induces immediate and prolonged reduction in IOP? Within 5 minutes of starting exercise IOP increases, but then gradually decreases. The lowest level is reached 60 minutes after completion of exercise. Moderate to heavy exercise is very effective in sedentary individuals, but less in the physically fit (physically fit individuals tend to have lower IOP). The effects wear off three weeks after exercising has stopped. Not a cure, but not bad considering all the other health benefits of exercise. (You may of course have to check with your physician before starting an exercise program).
Do you have any insulin related problems? Do you feel dizzy when hungry (possible hypoglycemia symptom)?
68) “quack” …. yeah whatever, you are entitled to your opinion. I strongly believe in individual freedom, that includes freedom of speech and you got to take the good with the bad. “bully” is a bit harsh, I haven’t nor would I threaten anyone. I do however like to know who I’m corresponding with and that at least shows I research. You make too many assumptions, Dan.
vertigowooyay said,
November 24, 2011 at 10:32 pm
Antibiotics have never claimed to boost the immune system. And again, your definition of cure is ludicrous. Antibiotics cure an infection. Yes overprescribing is a problem, but that’s the fault of lazy doctors, not the medication.
“vanity”? Is that a reference to the person above who took antibiotics for an infected skin lesion? I can’t see any other reason why you would use that specific word in this discussion. You reprehensible shit. That’s why you’re a quack and a bully.
And your habit of trying to diagnose people you’ve never met is unnerving and the hallmark of the quack. No, I’m not diabetic, the glaucoma is a risk for an entirely different reason. There is no other treatment, and I’m not prepared to go into detail about it. The drops prevent the glaucoma. That, as far as I’m concerned, is a cure for a condition that does not get better left alone.
You’re a quack because you propagate quack ideas. And you’re a bully because of much of the passive aggressive nonsense you’ve spouted here with that whole insulting people and the faux outrage if you’re called on it.
Andi Mell said,
November 25, 2011 at 5:01 pm
@ vertigowooyay
You made a statement, I replied. You don’t like my response don’t comment, it’s very simple. I say what I mean and I mean what I say. Don’t hate me because I’m intelligent and knowledged. You need to look up the word diagnosis; I gave you some information and ask questions.
Sure you are unnerved, I took you out of your comfort zone and made you face something that you didn’t want to look at. Your anger is misdirected, maybe you should use that energy for something positive. I’ve seen your picture Dan, my advice was twofold.
Look up the meaning of passive aggressive, certainly doesn’t describe me, but I could easily point out a bunch of those traits in you. And bully …… did you proof read your response to me my friend?
Re the antibiotics again Dan, that’s exactly why they are correctors and not a cure. Sorry you don’t get it. At least we can agree on something, however I wouldn’t generalize Doctors to be lazy. Unfortunately they are following protocol and don’t know any better, they are just using the tools they have. That’s why I believe in educating the public and making them aware of alternate views, so they can make their own decision ….. you know liberty, freeing them from the mental slavery of fear mongering. The vanity part, make of it what you want, emotional attachment makes you subjective. If somebody takes antibiotics to get rid of something unsightly quickly, without allowing their own defense system to take care of it ……. then I call that vanity and that’s just my opinion. It’s also my opinion that the benefits don’t outweigh the risks, I don’t believe in treating discomforts, it makes us weak.
I never ask whether you are a diabetic Dan, but at least you had some idea where I was going. Your denial speaks volumes about you. The drops don’t prevent glaucoma, they only temporarily reduce the symptoms ….. you know a corrector, not a cure. Prevention, treatment and cure are the most misused words in medicine today, they provide a false sense of security and an inflated perception of benefit over risk. Exercise would be prevention! Even though it is a modern invention, it has become a necessity due to modern sedentary lifestyles. Many don’t have to do anything physical anymore and if anything they perform repetitive monotonous tasks that lead to all kinds of physical ailments. Full ROM exercise is a great way to counterbalance, but most waste their natural gifts and continue to suffer while patching up the problems with correctors and barbaric surgeries of misunderstood and misdiagnosed symptoms that in the end only lead to a worsenig of the condition. Many have forgotten that not only are we unequalled in intellect, but no other being on this planet has the fine motor skills as we do. Also look at the range of physical capacity, some can move enormous weights or participate in gruelling endurance events, yet so many have a hard time carrying groceries to their car or worse.
What’s really funny, is that you are everything you have accused me of. You can’t even present a logical, intelligent argument, just a hateful angry rant.
“It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” – Aristotle
It has been intriguing to learn about some of you, but it’s wearing thin. Meaningless, angry, intolerant and inappropriate statements, blatant dismissal of information, while picking apart irrelevant little details …… no discussion of ideas, just more of the same rhetoric.
jon said,
November 25, 2011 at 6:09 pm
Hey Andi – you’re famous!
http://wellknowntrolls.wordpress.com/2011/11/17/andi-mell/
jdc325 said,
November 25, 2011 at 6:29 pm
“I’m intelligent and knowledged.”
You forgot “modest” Andi.
jon said,
November 25, 2011 at 6:30 pm
Hi Andi, in an article on the `drdnaturopath` site called `Can’t lose weight? Blame your light bulbs`, it says:
“The new energy-efficient light bulbs (compact fluorescent) seem to be a serious suspect in promoting sugar dysregulation. They were shown to produce disruption of electromagnetic field in the environment causing changes in our physiology. It has been demonstrated that these light bulbs produce “dirty electricity” which contribute to blood sugar increase in people who are in their vicinity. Dr. Magda Havas from Trent University has conducted a study on health effects of “dirty electricity”, which she presented on CBC “Be Green”. The details of her study can be found in the link below. The effect of “dirty electricity” goes beyond disruption of blood sugar, it also aggravates neurological symptoms and asthma.”
How accurate would you say this is? How, exactly, does `dirty` electricity differ from the clean sort? Does, say, coal or nuclear generation produce `dirty` electricty, and wind or tidal generate the `clean’ sort? Do they look different under a microscope? What happens if they get mixed up in a wire?
vertigowooyay said,
November 25, 2011 at 10:05 pm
Oh dear Andi the bully.
“Sure you are unnerved, I took you out of your comfort zone and made you face something that you didn’t want to look at. Your anger is misdirected, maybe you should use that energy for something positive. I’ve seen your picture Dan, my advice was twofold.”
Now that’s just hilarious. Not just content to try and bully by using my real name, now you – gasp – you want me to know you know what I look like. Congratulations, you can use the Internet. Yes, I’m overweight. I can live without your faux concern. Andi, I don’t want your quack naturopath advice, or your patronising bullying. It’s unwelcome. So don’t do it again.
“I never ask whether you are a diabetic Dan, but at least you had some idea where I was going. Your denial speaks volumes about you”
You weasel. You didn’t ask if I was diabetic, you just applied common symptoms to me, which is the same thing, just weasel-ier. And once again, your trying to diagnose me online speaks not of my denial, but your wreckless quackery.
Do you not think for one second an actual doctor may have thought of diabetes? Are you that jaded towards skilled medics that you can’t imagine that might have been the first thing they thought of? My god, if that’s the case you’re not very bright.
My eye condition is not linked to diabetes. Again, I’m not prepared to declare my medical history to you, a quack who believes he can diagnose a stranger on the Internet (not only do you not have a good grasp of science, your grasp of ethics is pretty shonky as well).
“It has been intriguing to learn about some of you, but it’s wearing thin. Meaningless, angry, intolerant and inappropriate statements, blatant dismissal of information, while picking apart irrelevant little details …… no discussion of ideas, just more of the same rhetoric.”
Your grasp of irony is pretty bad as well.
But if we’re throwing random quotes around, here’s mine:
“Cunt” – DH Lawrence.
jaycueaitch said,
November 25, 2011 at 11:28 pm
Andi Mell. Antibiotics kill bacteria. Therefore they cure bacterial infections.
And if we’re quoting scientific philosophers, here’s one from Brian Cox:
“Twat”.
Andi Mell said,
November 27, 2011 at 8:57 pm
Wow …… where do I start, such a flood of responses. I’m glad my comment inspired such conversation, unfortunately it was only a barrage of stupid and ill attempts at infantile insults. Just the usual herd mentality, you don’t even understand why my comments have enraged you, outside of the typical propaganda you have bought into. Which is why there isn’t a single argument, not even an effort at trying to provide any different ideas.
@ James
Thanks for the kind, simple and witty response, James. Seriously though, we both know that having a strong opinion and being modest is an oxymoron.
@ vertigowooyay
You are welcome, Dan. I understand I have upset and challenged your status quo, but once the initial upset wears off and you start to digest my information, I’m confident you will appreciate the value. It will lead to many more questions, but don’t worry if you take it step by step you will get there. I’m happy to guide you in the right direction. Your comment about the doctor checking for diabetes first is fair, of course I would have expected that. What you need to understand however, is that long before anybody is medically classified as a (type 2) diabetic, they will have had an undiagnosed insulin problem for a long time already. That is not due to any incompetence of doctors, but due to the limitations of protocol, skills and tools. Signs and symptoms may include: obesity, mood swings, insomnia, fatigue, headaches, BP problems (high or low), craving for sweets, glaucoma etc. I’m sorry you misundersttod the denial comment, it was in regards to your “There is no other treatment” for your glaucoma comment. That’s my fault, I meant to start a new paragraph.
@ jqh
It’s been covered several times now, sorry you still don’t understand. The cause isn’t the bacterial infection, its an overwhelmed immune system. To simplify; since antibiotics don’t boost the immune system it isn’t a cure. Most prescribed antibiotics are broad spectrum, targeting all bacteria – good and bad. Hardly a cure as they present many health risks, but certainly a potentially life-saving corrector.
@ jon
You have been trying to get my attention for a while now, so here is your long sought response:
Thanks for the link, but that’s hardly news anymore. Just check # 60) genius. I do understand why you are so easily amused.
To answer your questions, I will provide a couple of links:
The first link is a general explanation using moving pictures with talking – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS5ogZxoZ2Y. The next link, again using moving picture with talking, explains “dirty electricity” more thoroughly. I must warn you Jon, its a bit more technical.
Your last paragraph …….. I must admit, I haven’t laughed this much in a while. I don’t think James would have touched this with the proverbial 10 foot pole, as it is a study published on the holy grail of medical information.
I’m curious Jon, what do you think about this new age idea, that the earth is round?
Andi Mell said,
November 27, 2011 at 9:03 pm
@ Jon
Here is the second link:
I separated them so Akismet doesn’t spam my posts.
jon said,
November 28, 2011 at 7:09 am
Boringly, you do tick every `Troll` box, Andi. Refusing to answer questions, unable to provide proper evidence, assertions of your superiority, deriding the intelligence of others, inability to conduct a meaningful exchange of opinion, touching belief that amateur YouTube films represent meaningful support of your position, appeals to authority, confirmation bias, obsessional searching for information about other users so’s you can (for instance) `reveal` real names in a threatening, bullying or intimidating manner…actually, that last one is a bit worrying. And a bit sad.
All very predictable, nothing new here. Not even amusement to be had.
vertigowooyay said,
November 28, 2011 at 11:08 am
*sigh*
Andi…
” I understand I have upset and challenged your status quo ”
No. You really haven’t, but it attests to the size of your ego that you think you have.
“I’m happy to guide you in the right direction”
If I have any medical concerns about anything in my life, be assured that I will go to someone with actual medical training rather than you.
” I’m sorry you misundersttod the denial comment, it was in regards to your “There is no other treatment” for your glaucoma comment. That’s my fault, I meant to start a new paragraph.”
1 – Bull, and indeed, shit.
2 – Once again: you do not know any of my medical history, least of all the origin of my eye condition. Do you really not grasp the concept of ethics and the fact that being intent of diagnosing a stranger via the internet is NOT ETHICAL when you are trying (albeit failing) to present yourself as someone who can impart medical knowledge? Do you not understand how incredibly dangerous and stupid that can be?
Andi Mell said,
November 28, 2011 at 7:03 pm
@ jon
Rather then reciting me and a couple of things form James and Dan, what is your opinion?
Do you understand “dirty electricity” yet? Which is cleaner, coal or wind? The wind type is probably less dusty, don’t ya think?
I didn’t have to ridicule your intelligence, you did a fine job of that yourself. Making assumptions is something you all have in common.
Seriously though Jon; how does one have a meaningful discussion with people that hide behind their keyboards with silly identities, attack in their first comment and then are only able to respond by being on the defensive. Explaining over and over that they really don’t have a clue or their own opinion, while repeatedly hiding their embarrassment, anger and frustration behind ill attempts at infantile insults?
What do you make of that new age idea, that the earth revolves around the sun?
jon said,
November 28, 2011 at 7:22 pm
Oops! Forgot to add the other trolly signifier: obsessional determination to have the last word as in Troll Land, this means: Win!
vertigowooyay said,
November 28, 2011 at 10:27 pm
“What do you make of that new age idea, that the earth revolves around the sun?”
That it’s well evidenced and proveable.
Wow, you might want to think really hard about what that means.
Love that you go straight for the ad hom to deflect from any substance, such as your appalling relationship with that whole ethics thing.
Andi Mell said,
November 30, 2011 at 1:59 am
@ vertigowooyay
“That it’s well evidenced and provable”, so is the information I have provided Dan. You …. will want to think really hard about what that means to you and why you are in denial. Many people confronted with the information and idea’s I have provided are upset at first, as it takes them out of their comfort zone. The reality of individual responsibility is sobering and not welcomed, as it means making changes to long established habits, rituals and possibly even their environment. Changes usually represent effort and difficulties, its much easier to whine about it and blame other factors including genetics and then simply take a pill (or drops). Even if not now, reality will eventually set in when the adverse effects from long term use of correctors show up. Just as sure as diabetes leads to blood thickening, vision problems, cardiovascular problems, liver problems, kidney failure etc. Many believe these problems are islolated and the answer is metformin, warfarin, heparin, eye drops, laser surgery, aspirin, beta blockers, calcium channel blockers, colchicine, lipitor or eventually even dialysis. That is not to say that the discovery and design of drugs isn’t important, as the research has let to a much better understanding of physiology. However drugs are supposed to be used on a temporary basis, until the cause of the health problem has been removed, this can often be accomplished through lifestyle changes already. And no Dan, I’m not talking about type one diabetes, autism, Marfan syndrome, sickle cell anemia, celiac disease or any other birth-defect and developmental problem. Personally I have no problem with what anybody chooses to do with their life, but I don’t want to pay for repeated poor choices. Health care (which should really be called sick care) is a tremendous financial burden in those countries that have a well established public health care systems. As long as people are comfortable with taking meds, their certainly is little motivation to find healthier solutions or even try to treat causes. Have you ever investigated the side effects of the drops you are taking Dan, what are the long term consequences? And no Dan, I’m not talking about blindness, because of not treating your glaucoma. Even if exercise doesn’t have an impact on your glaucoma, their are many other benefits. These benefits certainly outweigh any risks.
“ad hom to deflect from any substance”, what substance Dan? Silly attempts at infantile insults and defensive rantings are neither substance nor a meaningful exchange of opinions. Jon ask a ridiculously stupid question and to divert from his embarrassment he attacked me …… textbook “argumentum ad hominem”. Get over yourself with the diagnosis and ethics already, I told you to look up the meaning of diagnosis, you obviously don’t understand. I have only given you solid information, my opinion and ask questions ….. you know the ingredients for a meaningful discussion.
vertigowooyay said,
November 30, 2011 at 8:35 am
“That it’s well evidenced and provable”, so is the information I have provided Dan.”
No it isn’t. All the nonsense you’ve posted is just that: nonsense.
As for the rest, tl;dr.
An A-Z of Alternative Medicine « Stuff And Nonsense said,
January 22, 2012 at 6:15 pm
[…] This is something that has been discussed several times on the HolfordWatch blog. See also some discussion of homocysteine as a false surrogate end point on this […]
DNA said,
April 13, 2012 at 12:07 am
I think that unfortunately those who offer simple almost magical solutions are able to attact people wanting simple answers (we all do but reality is generally more complex). However, I have found an intersting snippet here http://www.jneurosci.org/content/30/8/2810.full
Molly said,
May 6, 2012 at 8:09 am
To the author of the HISTADELIA: A DOCTOR WRITES….If you sir/madam have personally suffered from Histadlia, you would know that Dr. Kaslow knows of what he is speaking. I have EXTENSIVELY researched this condition, because I suffer from it. My doctors, including primary care internist, allergist, ER doctor, etc. didn’t have a clue. My Histadlia manifested as a horrible skin condition of welts, lumps, rashes, etc. all at once. The allergist did do a rare blood test and informed me that my blood was so loaded with histamine, that he and his associate never encountered such a high count. He told me that there was nothing that could be done and for me to take antihystimine when these bouts errupted.
I was taking Diphenhydramine [which is well known by its brand name], until I researched it and found out how dangerous it is. I am over 65 years of age and I found that it was listed on the “Beers List” as to very cautiously or better not to be given to the elderly as it has such harmful effects to the brain and other functions of the body.
That alarmed me enough to decide NOT to take chemical antihistamines and further [and pray I have not done damage to myself by taking it to date]. I decided to research natural antihistimines, which led me to further research, until I have spent countless hours and days researching my condition and remedy [or at least effective treatment] and I finally realized what was the cause of my condition, the name of my conditon, and what to do about my condition…thanks to DR. J. E. KASLOW. I then continued to research everything he stated in his article. The more I researched, the more I learned and the pieces were slowly but surely filling in the puzzle.
If you are truly a doctor, why are you so set in taking away one’s hope, instead of giving hope.
Until I found all this information, I was terrified and deeply depressed. I laid in the bed for several weeks frozen in fear. I believed I had the most dreaded of diseases and was almost inconsolable. I live alone, have no family or anybody on the earth. My primary doctor is my emergency contact, so when the doctor[s] had no idea what was wrong with me and were not able to help me, try to imagine the nightmare I went through.
The above persons with their comments regarding, just because something is not written up in a medical journal, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist!
I just pray you and your loved ones never suffer from this condition or one like it.
MC in NJ
jdc325 said,
May 6, 2012 at 7:16 pm
Thanks for commenting Molly.
I note that you say “I have EXTENSIVELY researched this condition, because I suffer from it.” and “I finally realized what was the cause of my condition, the name of my conditon, and what to do about my condition…thanks to DR. J. E. KASLOW. I then continued to research everything he stated in his article. The more I researched, the more I learned and the pieces were slowly but surely filling in the puzzle.”
As you will have noted, I wrote in my blog post that I failed to find any evidence for the existence (or successful treatment) of histadelia. I contacted the Pfeiffer Treatment Centre and Dr Kaslow to ask if they could provide me with the research into histadelia. Neither obliged. As you have researched this condition, I would be grateful if you could share with me the evidence that you have seen.
With regard to your comment that “If you are truly a doctor, why are you so set in taking away one’s hope, instead of giving hope.” I should point out that I am not a doctor and I am unsure where you got that impression. I thought I should clarify that point.
Misybat said,
May 18, 2012 at 4:50 pm
Well thanks James and Andi for providing me with some entertainment this morning reading your posts. I am really sorry for finding it funny but I really needed to smile so I thank you both for that. I think you both make valid points and somewhere in between lies the truth. The truth in my life right now is I have a very young son who has extreme anger and rage issues that no one really seems to be able to figure out. People are eager to label him but intellectually they even admit he does not fit the diagnosis profiles. Our family is suffering horribly and trying to find answers to what is going on with him. All his lab work comes back with crazy out of control numbers including his histamine levels. They are so high that everyone cannot believe he not a walking anaphylactic reaction (which he has never had). I think the medical community has found many answers to many medical issues, but I think in that they have become arrogant as they still don’t know everything. The body is so very integrate and amazing how can anyone know it all. In my search for answers based on his symptoms and labs I ran across Histtadelia which does make sense with regards to my son. I am thankful for the medical community assessing my son for possible medical conditions, and finally coming to the conclusion that my son does not fit into any of their diagnoses. I am also thankful for the alternative medical community who continues to embrace the not norm diagnosis as possibilities for people like my son. I do not want to just give my child a drug to suppress the symptoms but really find the answer to what is going on in his little body and address that. But if the correct diagnosis is found and the answer is drugs I am not opposed to that, I just want a thoughtful assessment and answer. I don’t think the medical or alternative medical community should be against but should combine efforts to help the patient which is what really matters here not who is able to help. The answers probably lie somewhere in between. Please keep in mind when medicinal treatments first came about they were thought to be crazy and they didn’t have all the answers as to why but knew it was able to help some people. Later the whys and how’s were figured and out and now it is embraced as current accepted medical treatment.
jdc325 said,
May 18, 2012 at 5:20 pm
@Misybat
“Please keep in mind when medicinal treatments first came about they were thought to be crazy and they didn’t have all the answers as to why but knew it was able to help some people. Later the whys and how’s were figured and out and now it is embraced as current accepted medical treatment.”
If there were evidence to show the existence of, and successful treatment of, histadelia then those treatments that worked would be accepted as conventional medicine. The problem is, there appears to be no such evidence – there’s nothing in the indexed medical journals, and the Pfeiffer Treatment Center, Patrick Holford, and Dr Kaslow haven’t shared the evidence that underpins their claims. Assuming they have some.
I hope a genuine solution is found for your son’s issues.
Best of luck,
jdc.
Misybat said,
May 18, 2012 at 7:18 pm
I am in the process of trying to figure out if it is a viable solution and does work. I do understand your concern about not having documentation to support it and yes that does concern me as well. I have found documentation via sites and blogs of people who received treatment for Histadelia and it has tremendously helped elevate all their symptoms. I assume you will understand when I say that if I were not in the situation I am in fact have taken the same stance as you. But if you were in position of dire unwell physical being and no one seemed to have the answers in traditional medicine I know you would be more open to other options as that would be your only option. Especially like in my situation when the patient is not you it is your child. In this situation you have to be open to find help and answers no matter where they may come from. I do tread lightly in these areas as I know there are unscrupulous people out there ready to take advantage of others that are vulnerable, but that unfortunately is true in many areas of life. I also keep in mind that back in the beginning of the medical and physiological treatments they were both deemed as quacks per lack of proof and now are accepted. In this situation I may not get the confirming documentation I am seeking and may only get testimonials from patients, and that may be enough documentation for me to proceed with treatment. Thanks for your kind words and please post anything you may find about this type of diagnosis. It would be greatly appreciated. I would encourage you to be open to the recovery received from patients using that type of treatment no matter what it is called. Histadelia is just a name.
Molly said,
May 18, 2012 at 9:09 pm
You still don’t “get it”. This condition and its treatment are very sound.
Just because it is not documented in some ridiculous publications or ratified by other “doctors”, or what have you, doesn’t mean that Dr. Kaslow has not hit the nail on the head.
I HAVE HISTADELIA, and my physicians [three of them in seperate practices], did not have a clue as to what was wrong with me. They told me “there was nothing they could do”…that I should take antihistamines.
When I researched the horrible damage antihistamines do to one body and health, especially the brain, I stopped taking them immediately. I had been wondering why I felt so “out of it”. Being in my late sixties, I can not afford to endure the damage resulting from antihistamines.
As I researched my condition in EXTENSIVELY, I came across Dr. Kaslow’s report and the light shown brightly in my brain. I am currently on treatment that I devised from all the information I could gather from many sources. I now take the nutrients that I am lacking and stopped taking the nutrients I had unknowingly over done. My case of Histadelia is was so severe that I ended up in the ER and doctor prescribed antibiotics and told me I had clogged/infected tear duct. I didn’t have not even one symptom to back him up, but like a fool I got the rx filled and took it as directed and by the end of the week, I had to see my primary, I was such a mess.
My primary told me to stop taking the antibiotic immediately and put me on antihistamines for two weeks. My symptoms lessened a bit, but came back full blown. I saw an allergist. He took a new and on trial blood test and called me with the results. My blood protein was so high, over 4 thousand times what it should be and my blood was so full of histamines, it was poisoning me. He said there is nothing he could do, just for me to take antihistamines when it got really bad.
Dr. Kaslow has saved my life, because he CAN DO something for us by educating us in this relatively unknown/unstudied by most “doctors”, who are just ignorant, resistant to someone else finding the answer to help many people. If one is a true doctor of medicine, who sincerely honors other doctors that can help relieve or remove a patient’s suffering, why would that he/she [who’s sole purpose IS to help people] try to minimize, criticize, belittle, etc. someone who can. That is not a doctor, that is a jealous, small minded, cold hearted person. I firmly belive that such a “doctor” choose another profession and NOT one which is supposed to
help people, as obiously they do not have the mind, heart and spirit to do so.
Molly said,
May 18, 2012 at 9:20 pm
Dear Misybat,
Please follow the supplements that Dr. Kaslow has suggested. They ARE natural…an amino acid, vitamin, and minerals. It will do your son wonders and you will not have him on drugs. If you research the horrible side effects of antihistamines, you will be alarmed. Stop that poison [they ARE DRUGS], and follow Dr. Kaslow’s treatment recomendation. Your son will feel so very much better, he will be a different child…MUCH happier.
Molly
Misybat said,
May 19, 2012 at 5:28 am
Thanks Molly,
I am currently seeing a alternative allergist who wants to try some things, not pharmaceutical as these cause reactions in my son as well. I am not fully convinced that he has Histadelia as he has many symptoms but not all of them. I did find Dr. Kaslows site and will defiantly look into it if these other treatment dont work. Thanks for confirming that Dr. Kaslow is good at what he does and that his is able to help people with Histadelia.
jdc325 said,
May 19, 2012 at 12:18 pm
@Molly
“This condition and its treatment are very sound.”
Really? And the evidence for this is…?
Molly said,
May 19, 2012 at 12:57 pm
My personal experience. If you would read my entire comment, you would not be asking such a question.
When clinical trials are performed for a drug or treatment…what do they do/how is it done? They take person/people with the certain condition/illness/disease and they give them a medication or expose them to a treatment to see if it works. THAT is EXACTLY what I did with myself, as my doctors had no idea what my condition was/what was causing it, so I had to do my own research and doctoring.
I certainly hope that as a “doctor”, one had read his medical books more completely than one is reading these comments.
Why someone is hell-bent on destroying/disproving someone that can help elieviate peoples’ suffering is beyond me.
Molly
jdc325 said,
May 19, 2012 at 2:20 pm
And who was in your control group Molly? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randomized_controlled_trial
Molly said,
May 19, 2012 at 2:58 pm
You’re not going to bait me into a debate. When a person just wants to have their “own way”/be “right”/etc. all the time, it is evidence of one who needs to “win” to desperately try to empower themselves. This is not really about Dr. Kaslow/Histadelia/ect.. This is about one who has anger issues along with his feelings of not “measuring up”.
Too bad Dr. K doesn’t have a remedy for persons with low self-esteem.
What do they say? To be envied is a compliment…
I hope one gets a life and finds some happiness and fulfillment before it’s too late.
M
jdc325 said,
May 19, 2012 at 4:08 pm
@Molly
I see that you prefer cod psychology and insult to honest debate so I don’t think I’ll be missing much.
Molly said,
May 19, 2012 at 7:32 pm
Hit the nail on the head, did I?
DITTO
Misybat said,
May 20, 2012 at 3:05 pm
@Molly, How much did diet play a roll in your treatment if you dont mind me asking? Did you turn to a vegetarian diet or were you already on that type of diet prior to treating the Histadilia? I hope you dont mind me asking. Thanks for any help you can give me.
Molly said,
May 20, 2012 at 3:50 pm
I don’t mind at all. Being of any help to you and your son would be wonderful.
I’ve been a vegetarian for almost 45 years…no mammals, however I do [did] eat fish and once in a while chicken.
I was eating a lot of fish…every day, maybe more than twice a day. I stopped eating fish/seafood and haven’t eaten any for two months now…it did not help. I stopped eating eggs and that did not help and cheese and cheese as well.
I researched foods that are high in histamine [eggs for example] and I try to steer clear of them. Deli/lunch meats are extremely high in nitrates [including hot dogs, bacon, etc. (read the package) which is very bad for everyone especially people with histadelia.
My allergist insisted that it was an internal problem and nothing external, IE:food, foliage, soaps, etc.. He was wrong. Look up foods high in histamine and then cut them out. Add one food back in your son’s diet at a time and see if his behavior and condition worsen.
Unfortunately, these changes [from bad to good] take quite a bit of time, like couple to several months.
Stress plays a big part in aggrevating this condition. Taking th proper nutrients and eliminating the negative ones does wonders, however a major stress situation can trigger the body manufacturing extra histamine in a sufferer’s body.
I hope this info helps and please feel free to contact me any time. I am more than happy to help. I hope I can.
Molly
jdc325 said,
May 20, 2012 at 3:50 pm
@Molly,
If you think your personal experience is valid then perhaps you’d be interested in reading my latest post: https://jdc325.wordpress.com/2012/05/20/a-rough-guide-to-evidence-based-medicine/
Julie said,
June 6, 2012 at 10:36 pm
A prophet is not without honor except in his own country. That is the best concept that I can come up with on the fly to respond to this post. Great minds have always dealt with opposition. Dr. Kaslow and his methods cured me and that’s all I need to know.
jdc325 said,
June 7, 2012 at 4:22 pm
Hi Julie,
You say that Dr Kaslow and his methods ‘cured’ you and that’s all you need to know. I would argue that you can’t really know whether the treatment from Dr Kaslow was responsible for your recovery – you can’t rule out, for example, placebo effects, fluctuation of symptoms, or the natural history of whatever condition you had. See here for more: a rough guide to evidence-based medicine. I’m pleased that you feel better but I don’t think that anyone can say for sure that your improvement was caused by the treatment – all you can say for sure is that after seeing Dr Kaslow you felt better.
Kristine Cooper said,
June 23, 2012 at 11:16 pm
Lol@Col
Kristine Cooper said,
June 24, 2012 at 2:03 am
@jdc325, andi mell and the rest of you clueless, ungrateful, life wasting circus clowns. Let me reframe things for you. 1975…let me repeat 1975…at age 14 was the last i saw of my good health. This marks my first posting online EVER. I have been online since 1999. I just kinda had to post something. I was compelled to. Such was my visceral, knee-jerk, slack-jawed, and abject horror of a reaction in accidently wading into the egregious school yard nonsense I crawled through here. How i would love to have the option and life force to squander my precious energy having pointless and ridiculous arguments spanning months no less with nameless, faceless people in cyberspace! Having spent these last three plus decades just trying to survive each and every unsurvivable day. Having spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on useless, often dangerous treatment protocols. Having seen scores of doctors, specialists and alternative practioners. But mostly having been left to wander alone, in misery, in the wilderness of protracted, ever ratcheting illness with a pointless diagnosis of fibromyalgia. Each day that i am actually able to make it from my bed to the couch christened a rare and deeply savored victory. “Living” in the shadows. “Living” in the margins. “Living” in the periphery of all of you normal healthy mortals. When a trip to Walmart is the highlight of your month, you know you’re in trouble. When a double amputee passes you in the parking lot on the way in to Walmart you know you’re really in trouble… Fast forward to 2012…while STILL …yes, STILL, painstakingly researching underlying reasons for my ever worsening laundry list of symptoms, i come across a condition called Pyroluria…which lead to information about Histadelia which, unfortunately, by some cursed, circuitous, god forsaken pox lead me this “discussion” site. I’m guessing you already know that i found no help here today, no medical insight, no words of wisdom or beacons of light to illuminate the darkness and for what ails me. No…instead i found you folks. Boy, can you boys and girls wander off topic with a vengence! And now? And now? Well i’m just exhausted…
So… If you are well today, get your able body up and away from your hunched and feverish position in front of your computer tapping and lashing out at your real or imagined cyber nemisis. And dance a jig of glee! Afterall…who cares!!! Redirect your pointless passion. Get a hobby. Or howz abwout you visit a cancer ward, an animal shelter or pediatric burn victim for the hour you will wontonly, casually, carelessly waste here crafting your next pointless and rapier diatribe. Maybe you could swing by my place and make me a sandwhich or do a load of laundry for me. What a godsend that would be! Maybe that’ll put things in perspective for ya! Maybe that’ll reframe things for ya! What wonderous light you could shine into dark corners with all your spirit and spit and vinegar! And now for good measure…dance another jig of glee for how fortune has smiled upon you!!! As for me i won’t visit, much less dally here ever again. I’m just an accidental tourist here. I’ve got to get back to my usual residence of endless online medical research…but oh how i pine for the things i’d be doing with my life if i had the luxury of your time, your energy, your vitality. The things i could do…the things i could accomplish for myself and others! So a blessed wish for a nepenthe for what ails me. And a genuine and blessed wish for a nepenthe for what ails you.
Molly said,
June 24, 2012 at 2:01 pm
You should spend your literary talents writing a book. I am sorry for your condition and of course I wish you well.
Will name calling us really help? I understand you are angry, frustrated and terribly disappointed with hoplessness, however we are suffering as well or we would not be on this site in the first place.
Try Chinese Medicine or Indian Medicine [from India]. There are many alternative medicines out there of which our conventional medicine practioners are ignorant.
I wish you well and much success.
Andi said,
June 24, 2012 at 4:57 pm
@Kristine Cooper: Thanks for your colorful metaphorical response, but instead of wallowing in self-pity, how about you invest your time in taking responsibility for your own life and don’t worry about how others spend their time.
I don’t know you or what ails you except for you mentioning your diagnosis of fibromyalgia. I have worked with a number of people diagnosed with fibromyalgia and based on your writings you certainly fit the profile. I would suggest that instead of criticizing others, dwelling on the negative and feeling sorry for yourself, why don’t your drop your bias, open your mind and use some of the information you have amassed in your self proclaimed lengthy research and actually put it to practice.
Molly said,
June 24, 2012 at 10:06 pm
PLEASE DON’T SEND ME ANY MORE OF THIS “STUFF AND NONSENSE”!
CANCEL MY SUBSCRIPTION OR WHATEVER THAT HAS YOU SENDING ME THIS NONSENSE!!!!
Schizo said,
June 28, 2012 at 1:38 pm
Histadelia is very real. I live with it. And Carl Pfeiffer, though not perfect, should be celebrated as a true medical scientist. Together with Abram Hoffer.
A new life without what I believe should be called schizoaffective disorder.
The unbelievable in “true” medical “science” is that is highly biased. I have experienced this myself.
Sean said,
August 10, 2012 at 8:28 pm
Whats funny is he seems to believe from reading that things don’t exist because someone questioned it in the medical industry (Go figure) or no studies etc. are done to prove it! I use the old walk a mile in the shoes of someone who has had it and see it’s real, obviously he has not done this nor even remotely understands histadelia. James is very doctor type minded, yes the same ones that throw drugs (Studies on them make them safe I guess lol) with nasty side effects and a top 10 killer in the states, look it up prescription drugs kill more than alot of things yet they are prescribed and studied lol.
I seem to just ignore people like that and leave them alone, for sure DOCTORS are so far ahead of their time now yet they can’t cure a thing nor know the human body well nor preach health as far as nutrtion, they believe in some harmful drug which can destroy your liver or have this and that side effect. Great industry it is, they care lol.
I have high histamine and OCD, when I use something to keep that down I feel alot better, coincidence? Think not.
Sean
Tiggy said,
August 30, 2012 at 8:37 pm
Wow, t his Andi Mell thinks he’s so clever and he’s totally stupid. He doesn’t know the first thing about science and reading his comments is very annoying because he puts down people who do know about it and says that THEY know nothing. I don’t have a bias towards orthodoxy or alternative medicine – I’m sort of between the two – but I can spot weak arguments and placebo effects.
and1mell said,
September 2, 2012 at 6:24 pm
Thanks for reading anyway Tiggy. Don’t worry about it and keep on reading. The more you educate yourself, the more you will understand and the less you will contradict yourself in the future.
googlem said,
September 10, 2012 at 11:12 am
To the author:
There may be no studies on histadelia or pyroluria, and thus no ‘evidence’, but that does not in any way mean that the two conditions do not exist.
It simply means they have not been researched, and thus neither proven nor disproven.
On to what constitutes ‘evidence’. I conduct randomized control trials for a living, and anyone who knows the first thing about epistemology will be able to acknowledge that the large body of anecdotal evidence regarding these conditions and their treatment using supplements are enough for any thinking and open minded scientists to acknowledge that the matter merits research and that the anecdotes themselves should educate us and our a-priori expectations regarding the conditions. In other words, a well educated academician should regard the conditions as very highly likely to be real, until evidence proves otherwise.
It is sad that so many doctors, while so educated in other things, lack adequate training in understanding the exact role of statistics and probability, and more specifically, the randomized control trial, in informing and creating knowledge.
Doctors should take undergrad courses in Statistics and Probability, and epistemology – again. And so too, dear author, should you.
jdc325 said,
September 10, 2012 at 8:01 pm
@googlem,
“There may be no studies on histadelia or pyroluria, and thus no ‘evidence’, but that does not in any way mean that the two conditions do not exist.”
No, but it does mean that any claims that the conditions exist and can be treated with vitamin pills are unsubstantiated – which is precisely what I was complaining about in the blog post you are commenting on. People have been touting unproven remedies for conditions that have not been shown to exist for decades. You might think that “the matter merits research” but those doctors, scientists and media nutritionists who have been promoting the remedies have failed to publish any research on their efficacy. Perhaps you should contact them and urge them to do so?
Punch and Judy said,
September 21, 2012 at 9:36 pm
What you must do is prove that the claims of people who have successfully treated histadelia and become symptom free are false. The absence of published evidence (that you can understand, that falls into your hands, that someone mails you because you can’t do your own research) is not proof that histadelia is a quack internet disorder.
A quick and dirty way to find evidence that there is no such thing as histadelia is to look for all the naturopaths and orthomolecular physicians who have been sued for treating non-existent conditions with quack medicine. We have laws in the US regulating the practice of medicine.
So how many people have sued because they were taken in by quack doctors prescribing ineffective treatments for nonexistent disorders? Because they were duped into paying for treatment that did little or nothing to remedy their complaints?
You can look for the people who claim they are successfully treating histadelia. You can look at their medical records and get a picture of the lifelong symptoms they have had. Then you can examine them and get a picture of the symptoms they have post treatment. Then you can come up with a theory about how treating a nonexistent quack disorder has happened to coincide with the spontaneous remission of so many diagnosed and existent psychiatric disorders.
jdc325 said,
September 22, 2012 at 1:53 pm
I’m not the one making claims – Holford, Kazlow et al are. They’ve claimed that there is a condition called histadelia that they are able to treat with vitamin pills but they haven’t backed up their claim with evidence. All I’ve done is point this out. I’m not sure why you are asking me to disprove a claim that no-one has supplied any evidence for. If I claimed to have a unicorn in my back garden would you be happy if, instead of providing some evidence of this unicorn, I demanded that you prove its non-existence?
Wait, what? Are you seriously claiming that if no-one has been sued for claiming to treat an ailment then that is evidence of the existence of the condition? For a start, you’re supposing that patients would realise that they’d been duped.
That’s funny, because the people who actually have access to these medical records are the ones making claims. I wonder why the people who claim they are successfully treating histadelia haven’t released their positive results. You’d have thought that if they’d discovered and successfully treated a condition they might want to share that information. You know, like doctors and scientists tend to do when they make such interesting and important discoveries. So where are the academic papers they’ve authored describing their discoveries?
Bellagunn said,
May 17, 2013 at 12:00 pm
goodness……… what a thread.
I stumbled on to this while researching ways to up my body’s ability to generate DAO (to break down ingested histamine). Here is some non-pseudoscience on the subject of histamine;
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/85/5/1185.full.pdf+html
In my case I have been diagnosed with monoclonal mast cell activation disease. I have cKIT mutant mast cell colonies that react to *everything*, I am taking Gleevec (Imanitab) to suppress the cKIT receptor, preventing degranulation through that pathway but that only stops part of the problem. My mast cells still have histamine receptors and if those receptors are stimulated by the presence of histamine I can (and have) still experience anaphylaxis. So, in an effort to stay alive and relatively healthy I have had to adhere to a low histamine diet in addition to MCAD trigger avoidance. As you can imagine there is not much I can eat or come into contact with safely.
I am inclined to agree with the OP, histadelia is the expression of a underlying illness *NOT* an actual disease. The doctors who are treating it with detox/vitamins appear to be whistling in the dark. If they really want to help people they should turn their effors to figuring out why their treatments seem to work and contrubute to the finding a better way of treating the underlying disease(s).
Researcher said,
May 23, 2013 at 12:45 am
So it’s just a huge coincidence that Seroquel (quetiapin), prescribed for schizophrenia and bi-polar, just happens to act as a very strong anti-histamine?
jdc325 said,
May 23, 2013 at 4:30 pm
@Researcher,
Seroquel is a dopamine, serotonin, and adrenergic antagonist prescribed for schizophrenia. How does its antihistamine action demonstrate that (a) histadelia exists (b) it can be diagnosed reliably by nutritionists and (c) it can be treated by vitamin pills? I’m sorry but with all due respect, I’d suggest that it doesn’t. If you think about it, what you really need to do is demonstrate that histadelia exists and can be diagnosed & treated by those claiming to do so. Pointing out that a different treatment for a different condition has an antihistamine effect just won’t do.
Bellagunn said,
June 7, 2013 at 12:24 pm
Here is an update in my expression “histadelia” (as some would call it)
Gleevec is working wonderfully; I have had zero anaphylactic reactions while on it (I have stress tested with triggers that have produced anaphylaxis in the past, notably wheat and animal proteins), however I am still having symptoms of high histamine levels (hives, edema, smooth muscle spasms, pain, fatigue etc.) especially after eating foods that are high in dietary histamine. So far the Gleevec has not enabled me to return to a “normal” diet.
Based on my continuing symptoms my Dr believes that there is an additional mechanism behind my illness.
It is possible that my ability to degrade serum histamine is compromised. At my oncologists direction I have been supplementing with vitamin C (1000mg daily) and vitamin B6 (500mg 2x daily) and have experienced some improvement in my physical symptoms.
Together vitamin C and B6 help support the formation of DAO (diamine oxidase), which degrades serum histamine (via oxidative deamination). So by inference it appears that I am not naturally producing enough DAO on my own.
Histamine N-methyltranferase also degrades histamine (by N-methylation) specifically implicated in airway response and brain histamine levels (HNMT is active within the cells whereas DOA is active in the blood serum).
At this time I am not supplementing HNMT (I am not aware of any way to supplement HNMT without ingesting a lab generated animal sourced version of the enzyme.)
I have noticed some improvement by cutting back on dietary histamine and supplementing my DAO production, however, I still have high histamine symptoms.
That implies a problem with another mechanism by which histamine is degraded in the body.
MTHFR SNPs
“At least 40 mutations in the MTHFR gene have been identified in people with homocystinuria. Most of these mutations change single amino acids in MTHFR. These changes impair the function of the enzyme, and some cause the enzyme to be turned off (inactivated). Other mutations lead to the production of an abnormally small, nonfunctional version of the enzyme. Without functional methyenetetrahydrofolate reductase, homocysteine cannot be converted to methionine.”
(MTHFR genetic home reference http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/gene/MTHFR)
“Methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase catalyzes the reduction of methylenetetrahydrofolate to methyltetrahydrofolate. This is the only reaction generating methyltetrahydrofolate in the cell. Methionine synthase catalyzes a methyl transfer from methyltetrahydrofolate to homocysteine, generating methionine and tetrahydrofolate. “
(Methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase and methionine synthase: biochemistry and molecular biology R. G. Matthews • C. Sheppard • C. Goulding)
Histidine converts to Histamine (by specific L-histidine decarboxylase) or is converted to Glutimate by Tetrahydrofolate.
“Another key feature of histidine catabolism is that it serves as a source of ring nitrogen to combine with tetrahydrofolate (THF), producing the 1-carbon THF intermediate known as N5-formiminoTHF. The latter reaction is one of two routes to N5-formiminoTHF. Urocanate is converted to 4-imidazolone-5-propionate via the action of urocanate hydratase. The latter product is then converted to N-formiminoglutamte via the action of imidazolone propionase. Glutamate formiminotransferase then transfers the fomimino group to THF yielding glutamate and N5-formiminoTHF.”
(http://themedicalbiochemistrypage.org/amino-acid-metabolism.php)
Without adequate Tetrahydrofolate (caused by deficiencies in the Methionine synthase pathway), greater amounts of serum Histamine are created from Histidine (less Histadine is catabolized into Glutamate). This leads to abnormal and dangerously high levels of Histamine in the blood and cellular tissues.
In this way MTHFR SNPs directly contribute to abnormally high histamine levels.
I am asking my PCM to order a Methylenetetrahydrofolate Reductase (MTHFR), DNA Mutation Analysis (CPT Code 81291) to identify any MTHFR abnormalities so that this potential disease pathway can be addressed and treated.
I am also asking my PCM to order a cell based c-KIT Mutation Analysis (CPT Code 81404).
Based on my responsiveness to the Gleevec my oncologist does not believe I have Monoclonal MCAD (previously he diagnosed me Monoclonal based on the severity of my sympoms).
The D816V c-Kit mutation that is the basis for the diagnosis of Monoclonal MCAD is not responsive to Gleevec; Gleevec can only bond with the inactive configuration of the c-KIT receptor, and the D816V mutation puts the c-KIT receptor into a permanently active configuration.
However it is possible I may have some other c-KIT codon 816 mutation that is specifically related to mastocytosis with the potential to progress into systemic disease making this an ongoing concern and in cunjuntion with MTHFR SNPs a life threatening condition.
I am getting labs done next week to verify my MTHFR and c-KIT mutations.
(The c-KIT mutation causing human mastocytosis is resistant to STI571 and other KIT kinase inhibitors; kinases with enzymatic site mutations show different inhibitor sensitivity profiles than wild-type kinases and those with regulatory-type mutations: Yongsheng Ma, Shan Zeng, Dean D. Metcalfe, Cem Akin, Sasa Dimitrijevic, Joseph H. Butterfield, Gerald McMahon, and B. Jack Longley)
So in summation:
The term “histadelia” doesn’t mean anything clinically, it is a word that was used to describe high histamine without a known cause (idiopathic histadelia to be precise) however research has caught up with and has superceeded the necessity for the use of this phrase.
The type of “histadelia” that everyone seems to be obliquely referring to in this thread is more accurately described as Hypohomocystemia.
“Hypohomocystemia causes reduced availability of cysteine. Cysteine restriction causes limitation in production of sulfate, taurine and glutathione. The limited production ability is exacerbated in conditions that cause increased demand for any of the sulfur compounds produced from homocysteine.”
One specific condition associated with reduced glutathione status that has been previously discussed is Schizophrenia.
As I previously outlined, high serum histamine is a consequence of Hypohomocystemia.
Low plasma homocysteine may be treated with dietary supplemental sulfur amino acid intake (methionine, N-acetylcysteine, taurine and R-alpha-lipoic acid).
(Significance of Low Plasma Homocysteine, Richard S. Lord, Ph.D. and Kara Fitzgerald, N.D.)
So again, the proponents of histadelia are not totally off the mark, they are just behind the times.
Clayden0 said,
July 3, 2013 at 2:50 pm
http://www.area1255.blogspot.com/
For more information on Histamine effect on sex hormone production.
Clayden0 said,
July 3, 2013 at 3:00 pm
I see there has been a fury of comments since I’ve been out.
I elaborated quite a bit on the role of histamine and, how I myself have experienced the effects of it.
But if personal testimonial doesn’t do the skeptics any good.
I must refer back to my quote that was never quoted, I was saving this for the right time ;)
To the Wise Men/Women on here !!!!!
…”So, Andy, you wanted EVidENCe” ?
First let me bog your mind by going over my last post; word For Word.
“Oh and there is plenty of evidence. Let’s start with histamine’s PROVEN role as an EXCITORY neurotransmitter. We know excitory & inhibitory are opposites, right ? Low serotonin, is CONSISTENTLY implicated in OCD which is why SSRI’s are used as treatment. But, then it would make sense, histamine being excitory, OPPOSES serotonin. Again, they are opposites. Also, shall I remind that although I am no doctor, I am perfectly capable of looking this stuff up just as Andi & the others are. Deductable evidence has proven this, as well as people with OCD who have submitted their bloodwork to the institute.”
Well, you asked for it. Here it is.
(1)http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6149313(1)
(Histamine and Electrical Voltage Stimulation)
(2)Histamine and Ischemia (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12425146)
(3)Relevance of Histamine to Psychiatric Disorders and Drug Abuse(3)
(3)http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23109919(3)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20021346 (H3 Antagonists as A type of AntiPsychotic)
Abnormalties in Brain Histamine = Key Factor in Tourette’s Syndrome
http://www.ninds.nih.gov/news_and_events/news_articles/Abnormalities%20in%20Brain%20Histamine%20may%20be%20Key%20Factor%20in%20Tourette%20Syndrome.htm
Matt said,
September 5, 2013 at 7:56 pm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/07/130701080938.htm
zeik said,
December 16, 2013 at 4:17 am
Pretty late but came across this post while googling histamine levels and ocd.
Fellow skeptic about alternative medicine claims. (And also a person with OCD and allergies. )
But!
Apparently histamine receptors are involved in neurotransmitter regulation according to the British NHS and other sources.
http://www.nhsdirect.wales.nhs.uk/encyclopaedia/ll/article/antihistamines/
Scroll down to histamine receptors.
AND,
New study shows Link between histamine and tourette syndrome due to a certain gene variant. OCD and tourettes have High comorbidity.
So who knows? There may be a legit link
http://www.ninds.nih.gov/news_and_events/news_articles/Abnormalities%20in%20Brain%20Histamine%20may%20be%20Key%20Factor%20in%20Tourette%20Syndrome.htm
Either way, as someone who can’t tolerate traditional antidepressants, I’ll be happy with even a placebo effect from treatments targeting too much histamine, if I can check my skepticism
Gayle Hardine said,
February 5, 2014 at 12:10 am
I haven’t read a lot of your comments, but the general idea is that you are out to prove orthomolecular medicine is a fraud rather than looking for the truth. Orthomolecular medicine is the only treatment I have received from medical doctors in the last 20-30 years that actually works. The Pfeiffer Treatment Center no longer exists. The Pfeiffer Treatment Centre is in England, they are not associated. Dr. William Walsh has a different Clinic, now Walsh Research Institute 1155 S. Washington St. Naperville, IL 60540
630-596-5095 (office) info@walshinstitute.org.
Not difficult to find this out if you’re interested. On the other hand people are interested in talking with people who would like to get more information. They are not interested in dealing with people who have a preconceived agenda to tear them down. Most people are too busy for that. I don’t know who you are that your opinion should matter anyway. It is very curious to me that you are concerned about something being a “recognized medical condition” from a medical profession that has increasingly turned symptoms into so called “recognized medical conditions” as the use of drugs in medicine has proliferated.
I have had friends go to traditional medical doctors and gotten a diagnosis for their children for such ridiculous conditions as “chronic fever disorder” and “childhood depressive syndrome” because they don’t know what’s wrong with the child, don’t care to take the time to find out, just want to give a drug to cover a symptom and make them go away so they can make more money giving drugs to more people. Fever and depression are not illnesses they’re symptoms of illnesses that go untreated when you just give drugs.
I don’t go to regular medical doctors any more. It’s assembly line medicine. They pump people in and out to get money to pay their bills, then consult with their drug rep., who probably has a business degree, who tells THEM how to treat THEIR patients with the drugs they have to sell because most doctors today do not know how to practice medicine. You don’t think that’s how it works? Just try to get any real medical advice from a medical doctor anymore. I’ve been to Dr. Walsh’s clinic and it saved my life. He’s very personable, very willing to talk with people, often gives lectures to the public. These are very real conditions you are talking about here. Histadelia, Histapenia, and Pyroluria are the three most common conditions found that can lead to schizophrenia if untreated. Dr. Pfeiffer noted 29 medical conditions that will cause schizophrenia if untreated. I don’t think there is any such thing as a mental disorder. It’s all caused from undiagnosed physical illness.
jdc325 said,
February 5, 2014 at 2:27 am
Thanks Gayle. I’ve emailed Dr Walsh to see if he can provide the evidence people keep telling me is available.
Contagion has solved schizophrenia said,
March 7, 2014 at 1:18 pm
[…] by serotonin receptor 5-HT2A, hence why Hallucinogens conjure a similar response.(1) (2) (3). KASLOW ARTICLE IN REFERENCE Mercury and It's Adversity Upon Other Metals and Effects on The […]
Lisa Hellberg said,
March 23, 2014 at 2:22 pm
My son and I am currently being treated for pyrole disorder. I am 49 years old and life has had many challenges. Needless to say, I will keep you posted as to how treatment goes for myself and my 16 year old son.
Previously, I had been prescribed anti-depressants and anxiety medications. These only made me worst. I ended up in the emergency room on an IV. For years, I have been searching for answers. 2-1/2 years ago I went to a geneticist who found gene mutations in my liver metabolism. Needless to say, eventually I learned about pyrole disorder and found myself getting treatment from an MD.
I will keep you posted as to how our treatment goes.
kaka said,
May 25, 2014 at 10:21 pm
To all the naysayers about histadelia (or histimine in general) and its effect on mental health…the below link ought to be a good place for you to start your research.
Research article posted via Yale OCD Clinic about the HDC (histidine decarboxylase) gene: “Yale researchers find rare genetic cause of Tourette syndrome” http://www.ocd.yale.edu/news/article.aspx?id=6484
Andrew Sears said,
July 16, 2014 at 1:46 pm
Try contacting Dr Walsh at: http://www.walshinstitute.org
jdc325 said,
July 19, 2014 at 1:05 am
@Andrew, @Gayle,
Here’s my email to Dr Walsh and his reply:
Request:
Response:
I asked about Dr Walsh’s research. Can anyone tell me where in the reply Dr Walsh refers to his research?
Kathy said,
August 26, 2014 at 4:55 pm
Dr. Walsh now has a book out, Nutrient Power. He is now at the Walsh Research Institute. Some of the Pheiffer docs are at Mensah Medical. Both have extensive web pages.
Chris Williams said,
September 10, 2014 at 5:25 pm
Histadelia is also known as MTHFr SNP. A doctor can test for that phenotype and prescribe methyl folate. When orthomolecular medicine first treated the condition in the 1960s they used methionine (among other nutrients). Later SAM-e was used, but all of those (methyl folate, methionine, SAM-e) are methyl donors. Histadelics are also known as undermethylators. Methylation is an important biological process that many biochemistists have researched and written about, and the idea that methylation rates can be faulty is what histadelia (and histapenia) is about. Your search results in Pubmed might get more results if you include or try some other terms like MTHFr, under methylation, or high histamine.
Time said,
October 26, 2014 at 6:58 pm
Me thinks you all have way too much time on your hands. I guess I do too, so I’ll vouchsafe a dig or two in your manner.
When muckrakers stir the waters and like to call out quack, I like to think of the elderly Queen of England, who decades ago when doctors were trying everything to no avail and she was at wits end, turned to homeopathy, the ultimate quackery that defies the very basis of current atomic theory. Hee hee. She uses them to this day with confidence.
Many flavors for many paths and problems to catch slippery reality. Whatever part of reality you need to heal.
I also like to think of the many leaders in mainstream medical who were mercilessly persecuted for their insight and recommendations. In time, the pack of docs turns and follows and accepts their advice like a bunch of bleating sheep. But why the sheep dogs here nipping at the strays? What drives their intensity, they seem to be doing this for the fun of it? Must be in their genes.
Marcia said,
March 21, 2015 at 10:57 pm
Chris Williams said: “Histadelia is also known as MTHFr SNP.”
Uh, not true. Histadelia is a hypothesis from Pfeiffer, as noted many times above.
BUT, you’re correct in that the MTHFr SNP can result in methylation problems, and methylation is one of the two ways to lower levels of histamine.
“The concept of “histadelia” comes from the work of the late Carl Pfieffer, which is now carried on by William Walsh. High histamine occurs in people who are getting folic acid as their main source of folate, but are not able to convert it readily to the active, chemically reduced forms of folate. I think this is due to having inherited a slow version of the DHFR (dihydrofolate reductase) enzyme, which normally carries out this reaction. It has been found that the activity of this reaction varies a great deal among different people (by a factor of 5, or 500%!)
Folate normally impacts the degradation of histamine levels in two ways. One is that the normal breakdown of histidine, from which histamine is made, requires tetrahydrofolate, a reduced form of folate. Deficiency in this is what accounts for elevated Figlu (formiminoglutamate) on urine organic acids tests, such as the Genova Diagnostics Metabolic Analysis Profile.
The other way folate impacts histamine levels is that the intracellular breakdown of histamine is carried out by a methyltransferase reaction, and this depends on having adequate methylation capacity, which in turn depends on having enough methylfolate, another reduced form of folate.
For a person with this DHFR problem, taking folic acid will just add more inactive folate, and its absorption will compete with absorption of the active forms of folate, such as are found in natural (not folic acid fortified) foods. Nowadays it is possible to obtain methylfolate as a supplement (unlike at the time Pfieffer did his work) as L5-methyltetrahydrofolate (Metafolin, FolaPro, MethylMate B, Deplin (by prescription)), or the racemic 5-MTHF supplements.
So the problem in histadelia is not caused by too much B12 or folate, but not enough of the proper forms. Folic acid should be avoided particularly by people who have elevated histamine.”
The above was a quote from Rich Van Konynenburg, who by the way, sold no supplements, made no money off of his research into methylation defects and myalgic encephalomyelitis/CFS.
Thomas said,
July 1, 2015 at 7:54 pm
Interestingly, Dr. Kaslow seems to support some very out-there treatments, like one called “Photon Directed Action.” According to http://www.drkaslow.com/html/pda_-_photon_directed_action.htm , it appears that shining a light onto the patient through a glass vial containing “a specific homeopathic substance”. This is somehow supposed to cure a number of illness, including autoimmune disorders.
Furthermore, histadelia seems to be just an unproven hypothesis. It may be a real illness, but there’s no clinical evidence supporting this.
jdc325 said,
August 11, 2015 at 12:52 am
Thank you for the link Thomas.
I’ve rebalanced my GHON now, and I’ve never felt better.
Shining lights through homeopathic vials. This might even be better than the ludicrousness that is homeopathic paper remedies.
Jess said,
October 13, 2015 at 2:22 am
Hi JDC325,
Thanks for putting this article out there. I think it’s a good thing that your post is causing a stir within the histadelia debate. This is exactly what’s necessary because so many people blindly gulp down whatever version of the truth seems inherently true to them, independent of the fact there is no real evidence to support it. Here in Australia, the pyroluria debate is the latest fad diagnosis for any and all things related to depression, anxiety, hyperactivity in children, anal leakage, or whatever. Dr Bill Sukala has authored a pretty comprehensive critical post on pyroluria which may be of interest, particularly the comments section which looks much the same as the comments section in this post. You can check it out at: http://www.drbillsukala.com.au/nutrition/pyroluria-disease-myth/ Thanks again and keep up the good work. Cheers, Jess
Linda Nedderman-Eaton said,
February 29, 2016 at 4:08 am
While the idea of histadelia is widely debated (much to the chagrin of those who actually suffer from
the devistating effects of high histamine levels), the scientific literature does have evidence of
genetic defects that result in abnormally high histamine levels which when they activate Histamine
receptors 1, 2, 3, and/or 4 cause body wide symptoms.. Furthermore, if one understands the relevance
of the histamine degradation pathways, it all makes perfect biochemical sense.
By the way I suffered terribly for years before finding out I had such gene defects (for me
homozygous snps for RS1049793 and RS10156191) and have been greatly helped by a low histamine diet
and some targeted supplements
Here are some links:
http://www.deficitdao.org/en/dao-deficiency/what-is/
http://www.deficitdao.org/en/dao-deficiency/origin-of-dao-deficiency/genetic-factors/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19450133?dopt=Abstract
“For ABP1 the most relevant polymorphisms are rs10156191 Thr16Met, rs1049742 Ser332Phe, and
particularly because of its functional effect, rs1049793 His645Asp.” (Red highlighting is mine.)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21488903?dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18499706
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/85/5/1185.long
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18499706
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/811920
peter said,
May 29, 2016 at 3:17 am
Yet another single-cause unproven hypothesis. As if our issues had nothing to do with ourselves, they’re all just one chemical imbalance or another.
Deb said,
October 24, 2016 at 10:13 am
Hi, very interesting debate. I found this presentation, that seems to suggest that research has been done in Australia with 1 year follow up of treatment on 567 patients (and control group) – http://www.biobalance.org.au/_downloads/targeted-nutritional-treatment-of-mental-illness.pdf – whats your take on this? It would seem to be actual research into the effect of supplement treatments for ‘histadelia’? Love to hear your thoughts..
Deb said,
October 24, 2016 at 10:18 am
Actually I just found the journal paper for this study: http://www.aphref.aph.gov.au-house-committee-ee-mentalhealth-subs-attach01.pdf
Ariana said,
October 17, 2017 at 5:42 pm
Histadelia is often referred to as undermethylation which is indeed invloved in the pubmed medical literature regarding mental illness motherfucker.
peter said,
August 15, 2018 at 9:51 pm
I did not read every post but I am surprised this thread did not segue into a discussion of pyroluria, which in certain circles seems to be very popular these days and is another Hoffer/Pfeiffer/Walsh thing that Kaslow and many others have adopted (parroted).
Linda Nedderman-Eaton said,
August 16, 2018 at 7:05 am
The late Dr. Pfeiffer MD Ph.D (Biochemistry) was right about histadelia, and now that understand methylation and the MTHFR, DAO, MAO, and HNMT snps, the biochemistry and the science is proving Dr. Pfeiffer right.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17490952
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23225559
http://mthfr.net/histamine-intolerance-mthfr-and-methylation/2015/06/11/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25944644
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16531524
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10779289
You don’t have to believe it, but those of us who know the biochemistry involved know histamine intolerance is real. It is no different than “lactose intolerance” where people with little or defective lactase enzymes cannot break down milk sugar. But because the body has 4 histamine receptors the symptoms of HIT are more wide spread than lactose intolerance. And more and more physicians once they look up the science know it is real and are treating for it.
https://www.jillcarnahan.com/2018/03/19/boost-your-dao-levels-to-fight-histamine/?utm_source=Flatiron+Functional+Medicine+Newsletter&utm_campaign=aff5447783-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_10_06&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_a07715eedd-aff5447783-137676177&mc_cid=aff5447783&mc_eid=964505d2d3
https://avivaromm.com/histamine-intolerance/
I think I will take Pubmed, Dr. Lynch, and the other doctors over your opinion.
As for pyroluria, they think it too is related to gene defect or defects, but have yet to find the gene. What they do know is these people are severely deficient in zinc and B6 and need more than most people.